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-   -   CLE - Impact of other airlines (gates, routes, equipment, & etc) after UA De-Hubbing (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/midwest/1657720-cle-impact-other-airlines-gates-routes-equipment-etc-after-ua-de-hubbing.html)

moops380 Feb 5, 15 10:30 pm

Just ran across some info that providence RI has flights to frankfurt (condor) in the summer as well as flights to the Azores, which was moved from boston, which I'd think just due to costs out of BOS. Sure, a very dense area in RI, but one of these days I'd like to think tpac can exist from cle. lufthansa needs to put a 321 with extra tanks on the route!

ctownflyer Feb 6, 15 6:40 am


Originally Posted by moops380 (Post 24300486)
Just ran across some info that providence RI has flights to frankfurt (condor) in the summer as well as flights to the Azores, which was moved from boston, which I'd think just due to costs out of BOS. Sure, a very dense area in RI, but one of these days I'd like to think tpac can exist from cle. lufthansa needs to put a 321 with extra tanks on the route!

If CLE-FRA was ever going to happen it was in the CLE *A hub days.

Our best shot at TPAC is on a BA 787, and even that's a long shot. Otherwise nothing is going to happen without a heavy subsidy. Not that it can't work. PIT used to subsidize service to CDG but DL continues it seasonally even though the subsidy has ended.

gusd Feb 6, 15 6:44 am


Originally Posted by moops380 (Post 24300486)
Just ran across some info that providence RI has flights to frankfurt (condor) in the summer as well as flights to the Azores, which was moved from boston, which I'd think just due to costs out of BOS. Sure, a very dense area in RI, but one of these days I'd like to think tpac can exist from cle. lufthansa needs to put a 321 with extra tanks on the route!


Originally Posted by ctownflyer (Post 24301811)
If CLE-FRA was ever going to happen it was in the CLE *A hub days.

Our best shot at TPAC is on a BA 787, and even that's a long shot. Otherwise nothing is going to happen without a heavy subsidy. Not that it can't work. PIT used to subsidize service to CDG but DL continues it seasonally even though the subsidy has ended.

You mean TATL, not TPAC.

ctownflyer Feb 6, 15 6:49 am


Originally Posted by gusd (Post 24301832)
You mean TATL, not TPAC.

Of course, time to get more than 3 hours of sleep at night :p

TPAC will happen from CLE when it starts snowing in MIA.

moops380 Feb 6, 15 8:13 pm

Did mean Tatl...

Chinatown cleveland exists, although I think it wouldn't even warrant a daily cessna flight (hypothetically to anywhere in asia). Drove by there last summer, don't think I will again any time soon.

CLE needs to ditch the $20M facelift and lower fees, and perhaps subsidize some flights. Check in counters are for your non frequent flyer, your paying $20M for that?

I've taken a few 757 to london from the CLE, and they were always near capacity, BA to lhr is logical (i think 787 is dreaming, but i hope im wrong), or delta swooping in to paris, or ams? I wish united would completely pull out as much as they can (not sfo,iah,ewr,iad,ewr,ord i think). so something else can develop. Maybe delta will make a luxury coach shuttle to DTW, we will never know!

buckeyefanflyer Feb 9, 15 3:37 pm

Saw the letter in this post that they are considering in the future reopening D and shutting down one of the older concourses probably A or B. This can't happen unless they build a direct connector from D to the main terminal and already lost a year in doing something. Big mistake not having this as part of the original design since some years after D opened a lot of local people were using it not making connections.
Another suggestion rather then spending that money to update the ticket counter areas consider building a new terminal between D and the main terminal to serve D.
The main terminal was built in 1948 and the ticket counter rebuild was completed I believe around 1970.
The Europe scenario was CO started CLE-LGW in 1999 operated all year round was discontinued after 9-11 but route was reinstated the following May. It operated all year but had frequency reduction then some years latter went seasonal.
In May 2008 CO started Paris nonstop but it only lasted 4 months. In December CO announced it would not fly the Paris route again but would move the London route from LGW to LHR. A year latter CO announced it would no longer run the London flight even seasonal despite from observation it ran very full in the summer. The mayor and airport director were suppose to go to Houston to get answers on why the London would no longer operate. This was really all Jeff's doing. Maybe the city could have given CO some money to help keep the route.

CAPTMARK Feb 21, 15 6:03 am


Originally Posted by Xyzzy (Post 24249494)
Well, CLE is still listed as a hub under Current Hub Weather Conditions on UA.com...

They just took CLE off weather page today :(

BearX220 Feb 21, 15 6:15 am


Originally Posted by moops380 (Post 24306095)
I've taken a few 757 to london from the CLE, and they were always near capacity, BA to lhr is logical (i think 787 is dreaming, but i hope im wrong), or delta swooping in to paris, or ams? I wish united would completely pull out as much as they can (not sfo,iah,ewr,iad,ewr,ord i think). so something else can develop.

BA is using the 787 for long thin secondary markets from LHR. LHR-AUS has worked very well for them but Austin has a rep with UK vacationers as a big food & music destination and Cleveland does not.

BA now serves about 22 (give or take) US cities nonstop. Markets with greater population than CLE which BA does not yet serve include IND, JAX, MEM, etc. so if BA is eyeing more second-tier stations in the States I would think CLE is well down the hitlist.

Also, according to this, AUS population is rising dramatically and CLE's is falling.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

DL is not going to challenge its own DTW operations up the road, or what's left of CVG, with any investment in CLE. Your best chances of a TATL route are some weird offbeat experiment by a Ryanair or similar.

Art Thomas Feb 21, 15 8:51 am

CLE map out of Hemispheres
 
I noted in the Nov. or Dec. "Hemispheres" that a map of CLE airport still included the mothballed D Concourse. So, I sent an E-mail to the editor about it. I see in the Feb. "Hemispheres" that rather than update the map, they just left CLE map out completely. Sigh.....

CMK10 Feb 24, 15 7:08 am

Looks like Frontier is loving this:


Frontier Airlines is doubling down on its service out of Cleveland to four sunshine destinations with a one-day sale on tickets of $49 each way.

The budget carrier announced that it will add frequencies from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport to Fort Myers, Orlando and Tampa, Florida, as well as Las Vegas.
Frontier Airlines doubles service to vacation destinations, has one-day, $49 sale

ctownflyer Feb 24, 15 7:21 am


Originally Posted by CMK10 (Post 24405941)

Kiss UA service to MCO and LAS goodbye! I'd be surprised to see any non-hub service from CLE in a year from now. BOS, CUN, LAS, MCO, and SJU will probably be in the next round of cuts. That leaves a couple of non-hub business destinations like DCA, LGA, MKE, and STL that probably won't last long themselves.

Happy that F9 is ditching CLE-FLL. Hopefully that will make the route profitable for B6 with just them and NK fighting for that market.

ctownflyer Feb 24, 15 7:28 am


Originally Posted by BearX220 (Post 24389638)
BA is using the 787 for long thin secondary markets from LHR. LHR-AUS has worked very well for them but Austin has a rep with UK vacationers as a big food & music destination and Cleveland does not.

BA now serves about 22 (give or take) US cities nonstop. Markets with greater population than CLE which BA does not yet serve include IND, JAX, MEM, etc. so if BA is eyeing more second-tier stations in the States I would think CLE is well down the hitlist.

Also, according to this, AUS population is rising dramatically and CLE's is falling.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

DL is not going to challenge its own DTW operations up the road, or what's left of CVG, with any investment in CLE. Your best chances of a TATL route are some weird offbeat experiment by a Ryanair or similar.

Population of the city limits, really now? :rolleyes:
Can you find a worse metric to use?

Here's a real one, and why CLE was listed on BA's short-list:
CLE CSA: 3,515,646
IND CSA: 2,266,569
JAX CSA: 1,470,473
MEM CSA: 1,353,087

Still a long-shot, but apples-to-apples comparisons are required here.
CLE is the largest CSA that doesn't have TATL service.

wpr8e Feb 24, 15 8:16 am


Originally Posted by buckeyefanflyer (Post 24320563)
Saw the letter in this post that they are considering in the future reopening D and shutting down one of the older concourses probably A or B. This can't happen unless they build a direct connector from D to the main terminal and already lost a year in doing something. Big mistake not having this as part of the original design since some years after D opened a lot of local people were using it not making connections.
Another suggestion rather then spending that money to update the ticket counter areas consider building a new terminal between D and the main terminal to serve D.
The main terminal was built in 1948 and the ticket counter rebuild was completed I believe around 1970.
The Europe scenario was CO started CLE-LGW in 1999 operated all year round was discontinued after 9-11 but route was reinstated the following May. It operated all year but had frequency reduction then some years latter went seasonal.
In May 2008 CO started Paris nonstop but it only lasted 4 months. In December CO announced it would not fly the Paris route again but would move the London route from LGW to LHR. A year latter CO announced it would no longer run the London flight even seasonal despite from observation it ran very full in the summer. The mayor and airport director were suppose to go to Houston to get answers on why the London would no longer operate. This was really all Jeff's doing. Maybe the city could have given CO some money to help keep the route.

The delusions of grandeur are laughable.

Nothing makes CLE any more or less special than any other mid continent hub that's lost hub service that doesn't have local strong O&D. CLE is not Chicago, NY, WAS, or Dallas. It never will be.

Does CLE have enough of a yield premium to support nonstop to Europe? No

Can traffic that would have flowed over CLE in the past be satisfied by another hub? Yes. (likely why the CLE-LON were historically full--garage connecting traffic)

Does CLE provide any incremental value at the network level or have a unique geography to substantiate multiple flights per day to multiple destinations? No

Is CLE any different in this regard with MEM, PIT, STL, CVG? No.

ctownflyer Feb 24, 15 9:37 am


Originally Posted by wpr8e (Post 24406331)
The delusions of grander are laughable.

Nothing makes CLE any more or less special than any other mid continent hub that's lost hub service that doesn't have local strong O&D. CLE is not Chicago, NY, WAS, or Dallas. It never will be.

Does CLE have enough of a yield premium to support nonstop to Europe? No

Can traffic that would have flowed over CLE in the past be satisfied by another hub? Yes. (likely why the CLE-LON were historically full--garage connecting traffic)

Does CLE provide any incremental value at the network level or have a unique geography to substantiate multiple flights per day to multiple destinations? No

Is CLE any different in this regard with MEM, PIT, STL, CVG? No.

All true, except that CVG and PIT both have TATL service.

And IIRC BA has recently been cited as looking into BNA, CLE, CMH, IND, and STL for 787 service.

Still a long-shot, but far from impossible. A subsidy from any of those communities would likely make it happen. PIT continues to have seasonal DL service to CDG even after the subsidy ended.

entropy Feb 24, 15 11:00 am

I really don't expect CLE to get any schedule int'l service (aside from Toronto/Montreal).

The F9/NK stuff isn't really "high quality" traffic but I do think that CLE has an opportunity to prove itself with B6 and hopefully VX. I fully expect United to bow out of BOS, while Virgin can provide a viable competitor to SFO/LAX.


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