2009 Program Changes -- the good, the bad and the ugly
Oct 23, 2008 | 4:53 am
#181
Moderator, Marriott Bonvoy & FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: McKinney, TX, USA
Programs: United Silver; AA Plat/2MM; Marriott LT Titanium; Hilton Gold
Posts: 11,775
So I don't see the retroactive part here.
Oct 23, 2008 | 4:53 am
#182
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NC
Programs: Marriott LT Plat, Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 2,881
But why would it they have to make a retroactive change? If one HAS the coupon prior to the change date, then it was obviously ordered it prior to the change - which means (from everything posted on here) that it would be accepted under the old terms.
If one DOESN'T have it, then the cert will come with the new category changes. You can't get a cert that will say "any" because the hopper awards will have disappeared.
Oct 23, 2008 | 5:30 am
#183
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 915
To rephrase an issue...
by rahmanbar
I'm curious as to whether Marriott considered the issue of the Category 5 Free night Certificate posted to each card holders' MR account commencing with their second year as a cardholder.
I'm curious as to whether Marriott considered the issue of the Category 5 Free night Certificate posted to each card holders' MR account commencing with their second year as a cardholder.
Marriott Concierge I am not aware of any plans to change this benefit. You will still receive the same category 5 certificate on your anniversary. Since this award is only valid for six months, having no black out dates and only limited capacity controls should make this particular
reward a better value.
reward a better value.
The issue was not one of the validity period for a Chase Visa cat 5 free night certificate nor one having to do with capacity controls.
My point was that "category creep" out of category 5 would cause not only a additiional devaluing of points needed for a property award, but in addition filution of the value of the Chase Visa 6 months free night certificate.
Peruse the list of existing category five properties - some really nice wones there in great locales.
Under the new rules there's a fifth free night available and if, you can arrange for acceptance of the Chase certificate what was "one no-charge night" becomes two.
And that's my point -- movement of a property upwards out of cat 5swould be a double-whammy (more points required under normal circumstances as well as the inability to untilize a Chase certificate in conjunction with a rewards stay), and I'm curious as to how the potential for that will be addressed (if it will be addressed at all)..
Oct 23, 2008 | 6:00 am
#184
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: DCA, EGE, IAD
Programs: MR LTT, BA Gold, AA LTP, UA Silver
Posts: 6,093
Actually you have to have the Euro Hopper award before January 1 as the offer is only good through December 31 as it is every year. The Euro Hopper award certificates are then good for 12 months from the date of the award request.
Oct 23, 2008 | 6:22 am
#185
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: DL DM 2MM, Marriott LT Titanium, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 17,173
So just to summarize... the only true enhancement is if you stay for 5 nights in a Cat 2/3/4 hotel. Other than that, its a massive devaluation with huge point increases across the board, and 30%-40% in what used to be the 'sweet spot' for best value of 7 nights in cat 5/6/7.
The more I think about this, the more it upsets me. I'd much rather give back the no blackouts and keep the current system with the incremental reduction in points per night as you stay longer. That was the one big place where MR had an advantage, now they blew that away. The increased point bonus for Plats doesn't even com eclose to making up for the across the board recemption increase. As for golds, we get bent over and slammed for staying 50+ nights.
The more I think about this, the more it upsets me. I'd much rather give back the no blackouts and keep the current system with the incremental reduction in points per night as you stay longer. That was the one big place where MR had an advantage, now they blew that away. The increased point bonus for Plats doesn't even com eclose to making up for the across the board recemption increase. As for golds, we get bent over and slammed for staying 50+ nights.
Oct 23, 2008 | 7:21 am
#186
Moderator, Marriott Bonvoy & FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: McKinney, TX, USA
Programs: United Silver; AA Plat/2MM; Marriott LT Titanium; Hilton Gold
Posts: 11,775
Oct 23, 2008 | 8:29 am
#187
Join Date: Oct 2004
Programs: DL Plat, AA Gold, IC Royal Ambassador, PCR Plat, MR Gold, Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 3
I think Satori's post #138 and the link is the most useful and accurate of any of this. Thank you for the information!
Oct 23, 2008 | 8:40 am
#188
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: MSP
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Titanium, UA Silver, Hertz 5*
Posts: 922
In the event they are no longer honored, do I get my points back (150K) if I dont end up using any of them? If I use one of the 3 certificates and not the others, what would be my options?
Oct 23, 2008 | 9:29 am
#189
Join Date: Feb 2005
Programs: Marriott Rewards Platinum, Mileage Plus Silver
Posts: 82
I would disagree that Marriott is following US. Marriott has elite bonuses. US has squat in that area. Marriott is raising the reimbursement rates to properties in exchanging for getting rid of most of the blackout dates. The tradeoff is that it will cost more points to redeem for the free nights.
Starwood is great if you fit certain travel patterns and needs. For me, Starwood is not a good fit because:
(1) Most Westins have no lounge.
(2) Free breakfast is not an elite benefit, unlike at Hilton, Hyatt, and Marriott.
(3) Most Sheraton and Westin properties do not participate with Boingo or T-Mobile's Hotspot. I am not paying an extra $10+/night for internet when Marriott and Hyatt have most FS properties that have free roaming with those two plans.
(4) Most *wood properties in the DC area have cancellation penalties if you cancel before 24 hours of arrival. I can cancel up to 6 pm on day of arrival for most Marriott properties (4 pm for RI). Hyatt is similar to *wood in cancellation policies for FS properties, but they offer a larger AAA discount.
(5) 4 Points and many Sheraton properties at *wood compare poorly with Marriott's equivalent properties. I know *wood is in a major upgrade of the Sheraton brand, but I am not going to bother to put in the effort to look for the good Sheraton properties and avoid the dumps.
(6) No lifetime elite status at *wood.
(7) Gold status at *wood is similar to platinum at Hyatt, a poor substitute for the top status at both brands.
(8) No EEOs
Of course, *wood has stuff that is attractive. Points & cash redemptions, guaranteed suite upgrades for platinum members, more frequent promos, a good credit card, a guaranteed 4 pm late checkout for elite members and a lower threshold for platinum status are some appealing parts of the *wood program. However, most of my stays are 2 nights, and I would rather put most of my one night stays at Hyatt.
Since I am a breakfast person, not having free breakfast would probably cost me at least $1000 extra a year if I stayed at *wood. The extra cost for internet would probably be another $1200 (versus the $480 I pay for my two Hotspot accounts, which I also use outside of hotels) since I stay mostly at FS properties. This is important for me because I pay for my own travel.
The dilution at Marriott is not great for me, since I have usually been able to find standard awards. However, I like the Marriott properties that I stay at frequently, and I am not going to jump ship in the hope of something better. I never stayed at Marriott solely for the points. The customer service has brought me back repeatedly, and I go to properties that offer free gym passes or have decent gyms.
Everyone's needs and wants will be different, and your stay pattern based on geography would play a part in what brand you choose to stay at. If I was visiting Tokyo, New Zealand, Taiwan, and parts of Africa on a regular basis, Marriott would not be such a good fit because they have few FS properties in these locations.
Starwood is great if you fit certain travel patterns and needs. For me, Starwood is not a good fit because:
(1) Most Westins have no lounge.
(2) Free breakfast is not an elite benefit, unlike at Hilton, Hyatt, and Marriott.
(3) Most Sheraton and Westin properties do not participate with Boingo or T-Mobile's Hotspot. I am not paying an extra $10+/night for internet when Marriott and Hyatt have most FS properties that have free roaming with those two plans.
(4) Most *wood properties in the DC area have cancellation penalties if you cancel before 24 hours of arrival. I can cancel up to 6 pm on day of arrival for most Marriott properties (4 pm for RI). Hyatt is similar to *wood in cancellation policies for FS properties, but they offer a larger AAA discount.
(5) 4 Points and many Sheraton properties at *wood compare poorly with Marriott's equivalent properties. I know *wood is in a major upgrade of the Sheraton brand, but I am not going to bother to put in the effort to look for the good Sheraton properties and avoid the dumps.
(6) No lifetime elite status at *wood.
(7) Gold status at *wood is similar to platinum at Hyatt, a poor substitute for the top status at both brands.
(8) No EEOs
Of course, *wood has stuff that is attractive. Points & cash redemptions, guaranteed suite upgrades for platinum members, more frequent promos, a good credit card, a guaranteed 4 pm late checkout for elite members and a lower threshold for platinum status are some appealing parts of the *wood program. However, most of my stays are 2 nights, and I would rather put most of my one night stays at Hyatt.
Since I am a breakfast person, not having free breakfast would probably cost me at least $1000 extra a year if I stayed at *wood. The extra cost for internet would probably be another $1200 (versus the $480 I pay for my two Hotspot accounts, which I also use outside of hotels) since I stay mostly at FS properties. This is important for me because I pay for my own travel.
The dilution at Marriott is not great for me, since I have usually been able to find standard awards. However, I like the Marriott properties that I stay at frequently, and I am not going to jump ship in the hope of something better. I never stayed at Marriott solely for the points. The customer service has brought me back repeatedly, and I go to properties that offer free gym passes or have decent gyms.
Everyone's needs and wants will be different, and your stay pattern based on geography would play a part in what brand you choose to stay at. If I was visiting Tokyo, New Zealand, Taiwan, and parts of Africa on a regular basis, Marriott would not be such a good fit because they have few FS properties in these locations.
And in most of my experience, I've noticed that the Sheratons & Westins tend to be $20-30 a night more expensive than the Renaissance/Marriotts; plus all the nickle and diming they do for 1-800 calls (e.g. Sheraton Toronto charges $2 to call a 1-800 number and some exhorbitant amount to use their health club).
There are advantages/disadvantages to both SPG & MR but even with the "enhancements" (don't get me wrong, they aren't), I'll be sticking with Marriott cause SPG has ticked me off so many times, MR has a long way to go down to get to that level.
Oct 23, 2008 | 9:44 am
#190
Original Poster
Company Representative - Marriott Concierge
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 1,083
1)
At the moment if I order a travel package with 120K miles (235,000/250,000/270,000 points) and then do not use the hotel portion I get a redeposit of 10,000 25,000 and 40,000 for a cat(1-5) cat(6) and cat(7) respectively. Can you confirm that this would still apply in the scenario you mention where a hotel portion ordered before January 15th is not used within 12 months and you no longer let it be extended.
2)
Will we be able to extend the hotel portions of travel packages after 12 months for travel packages ordered from 15th January (as we could do before this set of changes)
3)
Under the new pricing of 270,000/300,000/330,000/360,000 for a 120,000 miles travel package what will the redeposit amount be if a hotel portion is not extended/cancelled.
At the moment if I order a travel package with 120K miles (235,000/250,000/270,000 points) and then do not use the hotel portion I get a redeposit of 10,000 25,000 and 40,000 for a cat(1-5) cat(6) and cat(7) respectively. Can you confirm that this would still apply in the scenario you mention where a hotel portion ordered before January 15th is not used within 12 months and you no longer let it be extended.
2)
Will we be able to extend the hotel portions of travel packages after 12 months for travel packages ordered from 15th January (as we could do before this set of changes)
3)
Under the new pricing of 270,000/300,000/330,000/360,000 for a 120,000 miles travel package what will the redeposit amount be if a hotel portion is not extended/cancelled.
Question 2: The new packages issued after the 15th will be extendable, provided there are no unforeseen changes to the program.
Question 3: I will look into this. While I imagine there will be some sort of option to turn the hotel potion back in, I have no numbers on what the value will be.
So what happens if I order an award and do not end up using it? I understand that these are actually paper certificates, no? Do they come with an expiration date on them?
In the event they are no longer honored, do I get my points back (150K) if I dont end up using any of them? If I use one of the 3 certificates and not the others, what would be my options?
In the event they are no longer honored, do I get my points back (150K) if I dont end up using any of them? If I use one of the 3 certificates and not the others, what would be my options?
Ira
Last edited by Marriott Concierge; Oct 23, 2008 at 9:53 am
Oct 23, 2008 | 10:30 am
#191
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: MR Gold, DCL Silver, RSSC Silver
Posts: 775
The issue was not one of the validity period for a Chase Visa cat 5 free night certificate nor one having to do with capacity controls. My point was that "category creep" out of category 5 would cause not only a additiional devaluing of points needed for a property award, but in addition filution of the value of the Chase Visa 6 months free night certificate.
The Chase Visa has an annual fee. Many of us justify paying the fee because the Cat 5 certificate presently is pretty valuable. There are a lot of very nice Cat 5 properties. However, if all of the good Cat 5s become Cat 6s, then the cert issued with the Visa renewal will be much less valuable. It could cause many of us to drop the Visa, especially when combined with the general points devaluation. There are a lot of other cards out there.
Oct 23, 2008 | 12:19 pm
#192
Join Date: May 2004
Programs: Marriott platinum
Posts: 296
Marriott Concierge-
It would be great if we could order an award before Jan. 15 (or Dec. 31 in the case of the Euro Hopper awards) then use it for any hotel currently in that category anytime during 2009.
For instance, in late Dec. I would order a 7 night stay in a category 7 hotel (150,000 points) and it would be good for 12 months at any Marrriott hotel, even those that will bump to a category 8. I could make the reservation anytime during 2009, not be required to make a reservation prior to Jan. 15.
Obviously this certificates couldn't be renewed. They would only be good for 12 months. At that point we would have to order new rewards based on the new point structure.
Just wishful thinking on my part. It's frustrating trying to figure out all of next year's vacation plans & make reservations now so we will be charged this years points. It would be a lot easier if I could just order a couple of Euro Hopper awards and a couple of category 7 weeklong stays then use them in 2009.
This would allow us to use some of our hard-earned points at the current values in 2009 and give us some time to get used to the new program.
I know Marriott has to periodically adjust point redemption values for inflation, but I would prefer to see a 20% across the board increase. I liked the structured table for hotel redemptions, using fewer points per night the longer you stayed. To stay for a week in a category 7 in the new program will cost 210,000 points, a 40% increase. A week in a category 8 will be 240,000 points, a 60% increase. Those are the awards I would most often use.
I think Marriott should increase rates more often, not 40% or 60% at one time.
I'm Marriott Gold, so the new Platinum 50% bonus doesn't help me.
I've never paid extra points for "stay anytime", so I'm not excited about that feature. I'm flexible so I usually find what I want for "standard reward" amounts or travel at another time.
The points awards that I actually use (7 night stay certificates, air & hotel package, Euro Hopper) have increased by 40-60%. That is a huge increase at one time!!
It would be great if we could order an award before Jan. 15 (or Dec. 31 in the case of the Euro Hopper awards) then use it for any hotel currently in that category anytime during 2009.
For instance, in late Dec. I would order a 7 night stay in a category 7 hotel (150,000 points) and it would be good for 12 months at any Marrriott hotel, even those that will bump to a category 8. I could make the reservation anytime during 2009, not be required to make a reservation prior to Jan. 15.
Obviously this certificates couldn't be renewed. They would only be good for 12 months. At that point we would have to order new rewards based on the new point structure.
Just wishful thinking on my part. It's frustrating trying to figure out all of next year's vacation plans & make reservations now so we will be charged this years points. It would be a lot easier if I could just order a couple of Euro Hopper awards and a couple of category 7 weeklong stays then use them in 2009.
This would allow us to use some of our hard-earned points at the current values in 2009 and give us some time to get used to the new program.
I know Marriott has to periodically adjust point redemption values for inflation, but I would prefer to see a 20% across the board increase. I liked the structured table for hotel redemptions, using fewer points per night the longer you stayed. To stay for a week in a category 7 in the new program will cost 210,000 points, a 40% increase. A week in a category 8 will be 240,000 points, a 60% increase. Those are the awards I would most often use.
I think Marriott should increase rates more often, not 40% or 60% at one time.
I'm Marriott Gold, so the new Platinum 50% bonus doesn't help me.
I've never paid extra points for "stay anytime", so I'm not excited about that feature. I'm flexible so I usually find what I want for "standard reward" amounts or travel at another time.
The points awards that I actually use (7 night stay certificates, air & hotel package, Euro Hopper) have increased by 40-60%. That is a huge increase at one time!!
Oct 23, 2008 | 12:31 pm
#193
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Clearwater, FL
Programs: Marriott Lifetime Plat.
Posts: 299
Oct 23, 2008 | 1:35 pm
#194
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South America
Programs: AA Platinum 1MM - Marriott Silver
Posts: 353
Marriott Concierge - Expiration policy for certificates issued before these changes
1. What can we do with those certificates that we thought were extendable and will expire before we are able to use them?
2. Can we keep them alive by making a reservation up to Jan 15th even if they expired before that date?
3. What will happen with a certificate that is already attached to a reservation if you need to change dates or hotel beyond its expiration date?
4. Wouldn´t it make sense to establish a deadline for all certificates issued under the old T&C by January 15th, 2010 giving exactly 1 year after the start of the new program?
Thank you in advance for your comments
Oct 23, 2008 | 1:46 pm
#195
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 120
[I]"VA1379
I can't see how this devaluation is any worst than what HH and SPG have done in the past few years by pushing properties up several categories. Marriott has had bracket creep as well, although not to the same extent. Try finding a Hilton property that takes less than 20,000 points per night in a major metropolitan area, and you will discover than many HIs require 20 or 25,000 points per night. SPG has had some major increases as well, and I am not certain that they are that much better in terms of earning rewards."[/I][/COLOR]
This is my experience as well. Hilton has over 100 hotels that require 40,000 points per night before any changes for 2009. Marriott has 14.
I can't see how this devaluation is any worst than what HH and SPG have done in the past few years by pushing properties up several categories. Marriott has had bracket creep as well, although not to the same extent. Try finding a Hilton property that takes less than 20,000 points per night in a major metropolitan area, and you will discover than many HIs require 20 or 25,000 points per night. SPG has had some major increases as well, and I am not certain that they are that much better in terms of earning rewards."[/I][/COLOR]
This is my experience as well. Hilton has over 100 hotels that require 40,000 points per night before any changes for 2009. Marriott has 14.