Millions of points, out of the blue.
Feb 20, 2019, 12:04 pm
#61
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: South Florida
Programs: AA LTG (EXP), Hilton Silver (Dia), Marriott LTP (PP), SPG LTG (P) > MPG LTPP
Posts: 11,329
Errors always can be reversed regardless of the rules. Rules are for normal operations and most time just there to prevent members from doing something. Granted the OP may not have done anything wrong, but an error is an error and the OP should not expect to profit from the mistake.
Feb 20, 2019, 6:56 pm
#62
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Singapore
Programs: SQ *G, BA Gold, Bonvoy Ambassador Elite LFT Titanium , Hyatt Discoverist, ALL Diamond
Posts: 666
I had the same experience at the Laguna Bali and started calculated if I could spend the rest of my life burning points. Unfortunately, they rectified pretty quickly, although my good nature means that I would have notified my Ambassador before touching that pot of gold.
Feb 21, 2019, 8:00 am
#63
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: HKG • Ex SFO, NYC
Programs: UA 1K, AA EXP; Marriott Amb; Hyatt Globalist; Shangri-la Diamond; IHG SpireAmb; Hilton D; Accor G
Posts: 3,319
You could probably get away with transferring some out to fresh accounts on other mileage programs, and booking next day first class travel. Hell, with these many points you could get almost any seat on AA,UA,SQ,etc. since they have higher redemption tiers with much more availability
(Note — I don't recommend doing this, and it may be illegal. Just pointing out what's possible)
(Note — I don't recommend doing this, and it may be illegal. Just pointing out what's possible)
Feb 22, 2019, 9:56 am
#64
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Frozen in Carbonite
Programs: UA Aluminum 0.6MM, Bonvoy Life Sentence, Hyatt Eliteist, AA Super Plutonium
Posts: 2,878
If you have to ask the question, you already know the answer. I imagine an extra $700,000 in costs for a hotel in Indonesia (where the average person makes ~$250 a month) would be a painful error, and probably even more painful for everyone involved if you start spending points.
Ultimately, I doubt Marriott would leave the hotel on the hook for this mistake. 70m points is going to be noticed eventually - but I would do the right thing by getting in front of it and letting them know what happened ASAP.
After 10 years of engaging with this company I’ve always found them to be pretty reasonable people, and I’d bet you get some Goodwill points for your efforts and time. Not to mention good Karma.
Ultimately, I doubt Marriott would leave the hotel on the hook for this mistake. 70m points is going to be noticed eventually - but I would do the right thing by getting in front of it and letting them know what happened ASAP.
After 10 years of engaging with this company I’ve always found them to be pretty reasonable people, and I’d bet you get some Goodwill points for your efforts and time. Not to mention good Karma.
Last edited by TommyC80; Feb 22, 2019 at 1:42 pm Reason: Clarification
Feb 22, 2019, 11:40 am
#66
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SFO
Posts: 489
If you have to ask the question, you already know the answer. I imagine an extra $700,000 in costs for a hotel in Indonesia (where the average person makes ~$250 a month) would be a painful error, and probably even more painful for everyone involved if you start spending points.
Ultimately, I doubt Marriott would leave them on the hook for this mistake. 70m points is going to be noticed eventually - but I would do the right thing by getting in front of it and letting them know what happened ASAP.
After 10 years of engaging with this company I’ve always found them to be pretty reasonable people, and I’d bet you get some Goodwill points for your efforts and time. Not to mention good Karma.
Ultimately, I doubt Marriott would leave them on the hook for this mistake. 70m points is going to be noticed eventually - but I would do the right thing by getting in front of it and letting them know what happened ASAP.
After 10 years of engaging with this company I’ve always found them to be pretty reasonable people, and I’d bet you get some Goodwill points for your efforts and time. Not to mention good Karma.
Feb 23, 2019, 6:00 am
#69
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
IANAL but as a serious question: If OP makes a some effort to notify Starriott (good question as to what would qualify as a good faith effort) and they take no action, at what point does this cross from "unjust windfall" to "abandoned property"?
To use the bank error analogy, presume that I get a large sum in my account in error. Let's say $1m. I call the bank and say that I think there's an error. They go off to investigate. Nothing happens for an extended period (let's presume that the flunky who took the call doesn't pass it along) even though I either don't touch the money or move it into a dedicated money market account at the same bank (to at least draw interest while the bank sorts itself out). However...at some point in the next year or so I have to handle this on my taxes (since if it is mine, that's probably a $250k tax bill), so at what point is the bank SOL either for the chunk I had to pay taxes on or for the whole sum?
(Yes, my advice would be to either talk to Starriott or, if you want to consider doing anything else but that or waiting, to a good lawyer in your jurisdiction. Especially being outside the US, I think the vast majority of us are grossly unqualified to offer serious advice on what is potentially a million-dollar windfall.)
To use the bank error analogy, presume that I get a large sum in my account in error. Let's say $1m. I call the bank and say that I think there's an error. They go off to investigate. Nothing happens for an extended period (let's presume that the flunky who took the call doesn't pass it along) even though I either don't touch the money or move it into a dedicated money market account at the same bank (to at least draw interest while the bank sorts itself out). However...at some point in the next year or so I have to handle this on my taxes (since if it is mine, that's probably a $250k tax bill), so at what point is the bank SOL either for the chunk I had to pay taxes on or for the whole sum?
(Yes, my advice would be to either talk to Starriott or, if you want to consider doing anything else but that or waiting, to a good lawyer in your jurisdiction. Especially being outside the US, I think the vast majority of us are grossly unqualified to offer serious advice on what is potentially a million-dollar windfall.)
Feb 23, 2019, 9:56 pm
#70
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
So, I gave this some thought. Again, I don't know if there's a "duty to return" or something like that in your jurisdiction. It did occur to me, however, that there's a chance that you could get socked with a tax bill for those points as "income" since the connection to a stay is arguably tenuous.
Now, I agree with waiting until later this week to avoid the risk of a "double debit" (e.g. a manual clearing and an automatic clearing of the error hit at the same time)...but once they've had time to clear it on their own and presuming they haven't, I'd say put in a call. If for some reason they can't/won't take the points back in a timely manner (whether because of how you contact them or for some other reason), talk to a lawyer in your country.
Now, I agree with waiting until later this week to avoid the risk of a "double debit" (e.g. a manual clearing and an automatic clearing of the error hit at the same time)...but once they've had time to clear it on their own and presuming they haven't, I'd say put in a call. If for some reason they can't/won't take the points back in a timely manner (whether because of how you contact them or for some other reason), talk to a lawyer in your country.
Feb 24, 2019, 1:43 am
#71
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Live: IWI; Work: DCA/Everywhere; Play: LAS/SJU/MLE
Programs: AA EXP, DL PM, Hyatt Glob, Marriott Ambassador/LTP, Nat'l Exec Elite, LEYE Gold
Posts: 6,675
IANAL but as a serious question: If OP makes a some effort to notify Starriott (good question as to what would qualify as a good faith effort) and they take no action, at what point does this cross from "unjust windfall" to "abandoned property"?
To use the bank error analogy, presume that I get a large sum in my account in error. Let's say $1m. I call the bank and say that I think there's an error. They go off to investigate. Nothing happens for an extended period (let's presume that the flunky who took the call doesn't pass it along) even though I either don't touch the money or move it into a dedicated money market account at the same bank (to at least draw interest while the bank sorts itself out). However...at some point in the next year or so I have to handle this on my taxes (since if it is mine, that's probably a $250k tax bill), so at what point is the bank SOL either for the chunk I had to pay taxes on or for the whole sum?
(Yes, my advice would be to either talk to Starriott or, if you want to consider doing anything else but that or waiting, to a good lawyer in your jurisdiction. Especially being outside the US, I think the vast majority of us are grossly unqualified to offer serious advice on what is potentially a million-dollar windfall.)
To use the bank error analogy, presume that I get a large sum in my account in error. Let's say $1m. I call the bank and say that I think there's an error. They go off to investigate. Nothing happens for an extended period (let's presume that the flunky who took the call doesn't pass it along) even though I either don't touch the money or move it into a dedicated money market account at the same bank (to at least draw interest while the bank sorts itself out). However...at some point in the next year or so I have to handle this on my taxes (since if it is mine, that's probably a $250k tax bill), so at what point is the bank SOL either for the chunk I had to pay taxes on or for the whole sum?
(Yes, my advice would be to either talk to Starriott or, if you want to consider doing anything else but that or waiting, to a good lawyer in your jurisdiction. Especially being outside the US, I think the vast majority of us are grossly unqualified to offer serious advice on what is potentially a million-dollar windfall.)
As for the tax question, that's a more interesting one; I imagine that so long as the money sat in the account, you could find a way to avoid treating it as income (given that you're technically holding it, along with any interest accrued thereupon, in constructive trust for the bank). But you'd need a tax attorney to help you with that!
Feb 26, 2019, 12:17 am
#72
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
I am an lawyer but not a tax lawyer and not offering legal advice. The simple answer would be that in common law jurisdictions (USA, etc.) the bank has a claim against you for "unjust enrichment" (or quantum meruit, or restitution, depending on the terminology). How long they have to pursue that will depend, in each state, either on the statute of limitations or on something called the doctrine of laches. But it's safe to say that in most states it would be some years before you would be off the hook for liability for keeping the money that isn't rightfully yours.
As for the tax question, that's a more interesting one; I imagine that so long as the money sat in the account, you could find a way to avoid treating it as income (given that you're technically holding it, along with any interest accrued thereupon, in constructive trust for the bank). But you'd need a tax attorney to help you with that!
As for the tax question, that's a more interesting one; I imagine that so long as the money sat in the account, you could find a way to avoid treating it as income (given that you're technically holding it, along with any interest accrued thereupon, in constructive trust for the bank). But you'd need a tax attorney to help you with that!
I am (still) not a lawyer, but the status of the interest would be...er...interesting, no pun intended. There I think you'd have at least some case that the bank, in having you hold "their" funds in trust, owes you the interest since "you" had the money in your account. Of course, the party whose money it was (presuming it wasn't strictly the bank's cash) might also have a case against the bank for any forfeited interest (at least, presuming they were at least vaguely diligent in following up on things [1] and that they had intended to deposit the cash in an interest-bearing account) on the grounds that the bank incompetently mislaid their assets. And of course, the bank would love to have that money interest free...so the legal bar brawl there would probably be both technically fascinating and worthy of showing up on Lowering the Bar.
[1] One can imagine some amusing and/or absurd fact patterns here. For example (making one up as I go along):
"The plaintiff deposited $1m with the Bank on January 1, before going off to carry out charity work in the Amazon rainforest. Upon his return, three years later, in which time he had spent eighteen months as a hostage of a local militia and therefore been unable to check the status of his funds with the bank..."
Feb 26, 2019, 5:50 am
#74
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: EDI/GLA
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Posts: 2,272
Feb 26, 2019, 6:46 am
#75
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Cockeysville, MD
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Posts: 9,468