josephstern

OK - fair enough.

Bottom line: if it's worth your time, go for it.

josephstern

Centurion -

I totally understand your point about the possible consequences of my actions, but as far as I'm concerned, if I'm doing something totally legal, without even a hint of illegality, I can't live in fear of government entities.

Sure, they ask me some questions at my bank. But they also see a long and very steady history with them for 15 years. What, exactly, they pass on to the federal government, I don't know, but I have pretty clear documentation of everything, right? Orders from the US Mint, credit card charges, and deposits, all in identical numbers. Yes, they can make my life difficult if they want, but I think they'd figure this one out pretty fast.

broadwayblue

I can see how it would be a worthwhile pursuit as long as it lasts. I mean assume someone purchases 12 boxes a week on their SPG Amex, and brings the $3000 in coins to the bank on a weekly basis as well. How long would that take? Figure 15 minutes at the bank (assuming you stop off on your way somewhere and you go during non-peak hours) to deposit them. Basically you are earning 12,000 Starpoints a month...or enough for a free night at a Category 4 hotel worth about ~$300. So for about an hours worth of time invested you get a decent return. If you push the limit even further (more boxes per trip) the reward grows as well...with no additional time expenditure required. As long as the banks don't give you a hard time it's a pretty good game. Personally I gave up on the whole idea after I realized just how heavy a few boxes of coins are, and considering I live in the city and driving to the bank wasn't really feasible for me. And while it's true you can never have enough Starpoints, I put enough spend on my Amex each month it wasn't as worthwhile for me. But I can see why it is an attractive opportunity for many.

Eryeal

1. Actually banks don't have to legally take it. This has been discussed many times in this thread. A bank is a private institution and despite common belief, they are not required to take all legal tender.

2. Yes, definitely just my opinion.

3. The fact that you bring up the "$9 an hour" teller definitely shows how you classify people based on their earnings. Way to stereotype every teller that works at a bank. Again - I go back to basic human decency. If your bank and/or tellers really don't care, then more power to you. But at my bank, it is definitely a hardship to take all those coins and I'm not going to be giving them $20k a month.

4. How exactly is accepting $1 coins good business for all banks? As I said above, all my bank does is pack it up and send it back - at their expense. My bank is really the only "loser" in the situation - as they get nothing out of it and actually have to ship them back as they don't have use for that many $1 coins in their vault.

josephstern

Well, the point was, there is a poster who is taking $250 per trip to the bank. So $3000 would take him 12 trips to deposit - far more than an hours' time.

At $3K/shot, I'm in. But at $250/shot, I can't justify it, personally. Maybe if I didn't have kids? But then I guess I wouldn't need the money as much, either.

rrgg

Some of us go to the bank a lot anyway. I usually deposit only a few hundred with each visit.

FrAAmer

I don't understand this paranoia? And I don't understand this alleged disrespect for the bank re: large deposits.

I fully acknowledge that banks are private institutions and can set their own fees and make their own rules re: accepting any form and frequency of deposit. Unless you are a "good customer" I think it is foolish for one to expect that the bank has any obligation to you other than to provide the services it does for the fees it discloses. Unless you have large deposits on hand, and maybe a mortgage and an equity line or use other services provided by the bank, why would you expect otherwise?

The bankers I know tell me that they are rated by corporate on how many of a certain type of account they have, how many they have opened in a certain month etc. If you don't have that warm and fuzzy relationship with your bank that you want, perhaps a conversation with your banker re: "how can I be a better client of your bank?" might yield the results you are looking for.

I use the banks that I do because of their services and willingness to accept my coin deposits and also provide the many other services that I need from a bank in my daily life (wire transfers, counter checks, lines of credit, internet banking, merchant services, etc.). If the fee structure or service level failed to meet my needs, I would vote with my feet.

It hardly seems worthwhile for me to deposit anything less than $5K at a time- and as a merchant who owns retail stores, I do go to the bank often (so I could make many smaller deposits.)

The Mint will ship a single order of 20 boxes of NA's. My bank willingly accepts my deposits of $5K and I use a wheeled cart, tell my favorite teller that I have a coin deposit (she is also the vault teller) - and I wheel the boxes to the vault and place them inside for her. She doesn't even open the smaller boxes anymore, just counts them. And an occasional Starbucks gift card may also make the procedure smoother , but I give them to many of my service providers on a regular basis.

I used to post my count here- not to be boastful, but to counter the "you can't do that" posts from other Flyertalkers who either have smaller lines of credit on their credit cards or a less favorable working relationship with their bank- or to let newer readers of this thread know of the current policies/procedures/experiences from the bank or Mint. Frankly, this thread is too long and it is stupid to suggest that a newbie wade through all of the posts to get up to speed on what is happening now. The Wiki was a great idea.

Since I don't want to be spanked by the "coin police" on this thread, I have ceased to do so - but I certainly don't feel I am killing any golden goose and suggest that you take advantage of your ability to order and deposit as many coins as often and in as large a quantity as you possible can.

I do agree that to make your life simpler, however, you should limit your coin deposits to less than 10K per day (aggregate) per bank institution to avoid the required anti money laundering paperwork that such deposits would obligate the bank to submit. That would be respectful.

gejone

I agree with your post with the exception that the limit is $10K per day, unless the bank thinks you a making several deposits in a day that are less than $10K each to avoid the $10k reporting requirements. The structured deposits are ususally drug dealers or others in illegal activity that are trying to fly below the radar. Thus, telling the teller what you are actually doing avoids that suspician.

I think part of your sucess is the size of the branch you're dealing with. When I use a small branch, they have indicated that $5K is way over what they stock in 1$ coins so I don't abuse their system.

cardigans1

Everyone just needs to be discreet.

US Bank is closing my account because some *** deposited $90k in coins.

Because I deposited coins, my account has been flagged as I've now broken some obscure rule in their T&C.

I don't really care about the account, but if people abuse this, other banks are going to catch on as well and kill it for all.

tranzformer

You do realize that every bank, every week (several times per week even) send deposits (cash and coins) back to either their larger branch or to a Federal Reserve if one is located in the same city. No bank keeps all of their deposits on hand. Not even cash. So you aren't forcing them to hire a armor truck company to come just to pick up your coins. The bank is doing that anyways to pick up the other coins that they have in the vault and the excess cash they have. I forgot the number, but a bank works on a very small ratio of what accounts have vs. what the physical branch actually has on hand. So this expense that you talk about for them to ship it back to the Fed is one that they pay anyways.

tranzformer

For some odd reason I am going to call you out on this. I highly doubt they are closing your account just because you "deposited coins." I love your last sentence, "I don't really care about the account, but if people abuse this, other banks are going to catch on as well and kill it for all." Made me laugh.

FrAAmer

I have been contacted privately by another Flyertalker who asked me to stop posting erroneous information re: the reporting requirements for cash deposits over $10,000 (aggregate) in a single day.

OK, I did make a typo, which was pointed out and I edited my original post. (thank you gejone). I am sorry to anyone who was offended or wronged by my typo. It was an unintentional mistake. The rule (according to the link and the form below) is AGGREGATE PER DAY.

For those of you who want to see the form, here is a PDF link which also contains the instructions to the institution on when, where and why to file the form.

http://www.fincen.gov/forms/files/fin104_ctr.pdf

The Flyertalker who contacted me said that the rules have also changed and that a mere inquiry of a banker re: the reporting requirements is now a trigger for them to make a report that the question was asked. Talk about paranoia- let's see the proof of that one!

My point is making deposits OVER 10K per day is a controllable action on our parts and in my opinion is unnecessary as it does require the bank to file the form and could be looked at by them as extra work.

But I see no compelling reason not to make a $5K deposit, especially if you have an established working relationship with your bank. And, if you don't, I also suggested a way to see if you could do something that would increase your value to them as a customer.

If you are an honest person and have all of your mint receipts, then you can easily justify where the money came from and should have nothing to hide or fear.

dingo

fraamer, I see the logic and truth of your posts. I also am envious that your personal business situation allows you to develop these types of relationships with your banks and its employees; something most of us are not able to do. Sincere congrats on that!

On the $10k CTR thing, the rules pretty much let them do whatever they want to do. If the tellers view the coin deposits as an annoyance, then they can use that as a means to discourage the practice.

Speaking from a standpoint of running a company that sells services to banks, I can tell you that banks are under increased scrutiny (justifiably so) these days by examiners, regulators and internal audit. Bank employees are scared in many cases that they will slip up and do something they are not supposed to do or that cast doubt on them personally. The examiners are looking to make a point after all of the recent failures and are, frankly, out for blood when no blood is needed.

So I think 'to each his own' and use common sense is a good rule of thumb. When I took mine in, I called in advance and told them what was I was going to do. I asked them how I could make it easiest for them, opened up all the boxes and helped count out the rolls for them. I told them why I was doing it and even offered to tell them how to do it if they wanted to do so. I don't know that their good spirited attitude would continue if I did this every week or even every month but it did help on my first $5k deposit.

FrAAmer

Dingo-

Doing as you did is exactly what I am talking about and it is how you develop the relationship I was referring to. If I were doing it, the next step would be to have asked who you were working with "how often would it be OK for me to make a deposit like this?" and then time my orders accordingly.

I had a situation where my wife and I received shipments on the same day and I knew that one of my banks didn't want so many coins, so when making a deposit I just asked when could I make another deposit and they said they were shipping out that night so would I please wait a day as they would have room the next day. So I waited.

It is all about attitude and as you so well said- using common sense.

Andy2

One more minor thought on this financial reporting topic before we let it go away and get back to the business of buying coins for miles/points. When making lage deposits of less than $10,000, don't make up stupid or fkippant answers when the bank asks you why you are depositing so many coins. That probably will cause the bank to file a suspicious activity report, which is subjective and can be filed by them at their discretion. There is nothing wrong or illegal about purchasing the coins using a credit card in order to receive benefits and then depositing the coins. There is nothing wrong with telling them exactly what you are doing; it will minimize the chances of financial reporting when deposits for amounts less than $10,000.