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-   -   2020 Shutdown Thread (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/2002127-2020-shutdown-thread.html)

tuphat Feb 14, 2020 9:56 am

Starting point: review your applicable card agreement.
Citi DC is here: https://www.citi.com/CRD/PDF/CMA/car...eCashADA-3.pdf
Other Citi cards: https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/co...ion?ID=CMA-PIT

Excerpts from Citi DC CMA, section 11, "Arbitration" --

Arbitration shall be conducted by the American Arbitration Association
(“AAA”) according to this arbitration provision and the applicable AAA
arbitration rules in effect when the claim is filed (“AAA Rules”), except
where those rules conflict with this arbitration provision. You can obtain
copies of the AAA Rules at the AAA’s website (www.adr.org) or by
calling 800-778-7879 You or we may choose to have a hearing, appear at any hearing by phone or other electronic means, and/or be represented by counsel. Any in-person hearing will be held in the same city as the U.S. District Court closest to your billing address.

We’ll pay your share of the arbitration fee for an arbitration of Claims of $75,000 or less if they are unrelated to debt collection. Otherwise, arbitration fees will be allocated according to the applicable AAA Rules. If we prevail, we may not recover our arbitration fees, unless the arbitrator decides your Claim was frivolous. All parties are responsible for their own attorney’s fees, expert fees and any other expenses, unless the arbitrator awards such fees or expenses to you or us based on applicable law.

mordakky Feb 14, 2020 10:00 am


Originally Posted by tuphat (Post 32071966)
Starting point: review your applicable card agreement.
Citi DC is here: https://www.citi.com/CRD/PDF/CMA/car...eCashADA-3.pdf
Other Citi cards: https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/co...ion?ID=CMA-PIT

Excerpts from Citi DC CMA, section 11, "Arbitration" --

You or we may choose to have a hearing, appear at any hearing by phone or other electronic means, and/or be represented by counsel. Any in-person hearing will be held in the same city as the U.S. District Court closest to your billing address.

We’ll pay your share of the arbitration fee for an arbitration of Claims of $75,000 or less if they are unrelated to debt collection. Otherwise, arbitration fees will be allocated according to the applicable AAA Rules. If we prevail, we may not recover our arbitration fees, unless the arbitrator decides your Claim was frivolous. All parties are responsible for their own attorney’s fees, expert fees and any other expenses, unless the arbitrator awards such fees or expenses to you or us based on applicable law.

So I pay the $200/250 arb. fee then they reimburse me afterwards, whether I win or lose? That's awesome!

tuphat Feb 14, 2020 10:06 am


Originally Posted by mordakky (Post 32071982)
So I pay the $200/250 arb. fee then they reimburse me afterwards, whether I win or lose? That's awesome!

You don't even have to front the money, they pay it, or will if it actually goes that far. Just reference the applicable CMA provision in what you file with AAA to get the case opened. Also, stop thinking about JAMS as an option, stick with AAA.

craz Feb 14, 2020 10:09 am


Originally Posted by tuphat (Post 32071966)
Starting point: review your applicable card agreement.
Citi DC is here: https://www.citi.com/CRD/PDF/CMA/car...eCashADA-3.pdf
Other Citi cards: https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/co...ion?ID=CMA-PIT

Excerpts from Citi DC CMA, section 11, "Arbitration" --

Arbitration shall be conducted by the American Arbitration Association
(“AAA”) according to this arbitration provision and the applicable AAA
arbitration rules in effect when the claim is filed (“AAA Rules”), except
where those rules conflict with this arbitration provision. You can obtain
copies of the AAA Rules at the AAA’s website (www.adr.org) or by
calling 800-778-7879 You or we may choose to have a hearing, appear at any hearing by phone or other electronic means, and/or be represented by counsel. Any in-person hearing will be held in the same city as the U.S. District Court closest to your billing address.

We’ll pay your share of the arbitration fee for an arbitration of Claims of $75,000 or less if they are unrelated to debt collection. Otherwise, arbitration fees will be allocated according to the applicable AAA Rules. If we prevail, we may not recover our arbitration fees, unless the arbitrator decides your Claim was frivolous. All parties are responsible for their own attorney’s fees, expert fees and any other expenses, unless the arbitrator awards such fees or expenses to you or us based on applicable law.

Has it been like this always? I ask since the OP said their T&Cs listed fees that they would need to pay, yet your links doesnt list 1 fee , are your links what is now on Citis T&Cs or are they from when you had gotten the card/s?

It does state if a person brings a frivolous suit then the arb can have them pay a fee, so best to keep it simple and dont go after pain and suffering as someone suggested, nor inflate a $ amount just to do so

OP are you sure your section on ARB says you must pay a filing fee? Or did you look up each Arb company and saw the fees on their site?

mordakky Feb 14, 2020 10:27 am


Originally Posted by craz (Post 32072036)
Has it been like this always? I ask since the OP said their T&Cs listed fees that they would need to pay, yet your links doesnt list 1 fee , are your links what is now on Citis T&Cs or are they from when you had gotten the card/s?

It does state if a person brings a frivolous suit then the arb can have them pay a fee, so best to keep it simple and dont go after pain and suffering as someone suggested, nor inflate a $ amount just to do so

OP are you sure your section on ARB says you must pay a filing fee? Or did you look up each Arb company and saw the fees on their site?

I was basing the fee on the Arb company website.

craz Feb 14, 2020 10:48 am


Originally Posted by mordakky (Post 32072116)
I was basing the fee on the Arb company website.


In that case go for it! you have nothing to lose, except stick to what you actually didnt get(lost) the $1400 but as others have said Citi will low ball you to get rid of you, hopefully. And hopefully it will more then enough to cover your expenses to get the $1400 which should have been between $5 to $14 per $1k (depending where you purchased the cards and how and where you unloaded them) As for the $500 for opening the accts and meeting all the mins , check to see if Citi has the right to close the accts at anytime and unless it was just days away from qualifying for the $500.

Unlike the CB which was earned and qualified for, you didnt meet the mins for the $500 bonus. Of cause Citi will say but those cards you purchased we state arent good for the CB, it wont get to that, unless you decide to take Citi to the mat and actually go thru Arb, where you may lose and be out whatever (if any) settlement Citi offers to get rid of you.

And with your next card , dont go bonkers from day 1 you need to build up your relationship with the card issuer slowly and surely, thats if another issuer will give you a card,I say that since Citi probably messed up your Credit with reporting they closed all your accts, not something any issuer wants to see

mordakky Feb 14, 2020 11:00 am


Originally Posted by craz (Post 32072200)
And with your next card , dont go bonkers from day 1 you need to build up your relationship with the card issuer slowly and surely, thats if another issuer will give you a card,I say that since Citi probably messed up your Credit with reporting they closed all your accts, not something any issuer wants to see

It was worth it, I was MSing profit of $6,000/month for 3-4 months before shutdown lol.

craz Feb 14, 2020 11:17 am


Originally Posted by mordakky (Post 32072245)
It was worth it, I was MSing profit of $6,000/month for 3-4 months before shutdown lol.


yea I just saw that post, I never saw the posts on this thread till now I was coming off of The Walmart thread where you didnt supply the same info

Now that I see the whole pic for what it is, you really dont have any loss I thought the CS card was brand new and you never got even your 1st 2% back, seems you made close to $20K, but if you Ruined your Credit thats $20K I wouldnt want. Cant understand how Citi allowed a $500 bonus if you were with them for 15 yrs, usually its only for new people (accts)

Now knowing everything Im not sure what I would do if it was me. Man do I wish I had your joints to unload my cards, its really bad and getting worse in my neck of the woods and doing $15K a week isnt easy without putting in a full days work and a tank of gas. Just down in FL and the other week closer to you and man in 1/3 the time it takes me when home I was done unloading all with a 20 mile radius

Do you have access to your credit report? If Citi didnt mess it up yet by reprrting the closures, maybe think of simply walking away least they get back by reporting it all and killing your credit, unless you couldnt care 1 bit if they do

ogg Feb 14, 2020 11:32 am

I repeat, don't take any legal advice from anyone here, including me. Don't accept the notion that you have to limit your demands to your losses--that's not necessarily true. Don't assume that because your account was closed you arren't entitled to the opening bonus--if the account was closed to avoid paying the bonus or for no legitimate reason, of course you're still entitled to it IMHO. Get an attorney to handle this. Don't assume AAA is better than JAMS--the attorneys I've worked with prefer JAMS for a number of reasons. There are other issues that can come up in arbitration. Were you properly notified of the closures with an ECOA-compliant letter, for example?

tuphat Feb 14, 2020 12:16 pm


Originally Posted by ogg (Post 32072387)
I repeat, don't take any legal advice from anyone here, including me. ... Don't assume AAA is better than JAMS--the attorneys I've worked with prefer JAMS for a number of reasons.

If you bothered to read them, the CITI T&Cs specify AAA as the forum.

ogg Feb 14, 2020 12:59 pm


Originally Posted by tuphat (Post 32072559)
If you bothered to read them, the CITI T&Cs specify AAA as the forum.

This poster who has the problem said that Citi allows the choice of AAA or JAMS:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32070136-post97.html
And if you bothered to read the link I posted here:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32067997-post82.html
that also says Citi gives a choice of AAA or JAMS. I didn't read the other link because, again, I'm not giving legal advice. I don't know what terms apply to the specific case here. I don't know if the choice of arbitrator has to be the one Citi specifies in its terms. I don't know what decisions and laws have altered consumer rights in arbitration. I do know that courts have held that banks cannot insist on arbitration to prevent lawsuits regardless of their terms, but I don't know the details or where they apply.

Get an attorney. Don't listen to legal advice here or anywhere on the Internet. Lots of people think they know things and don't...including me.

mordakky Feb 14, 2020 1:23 pm


Originally Posted by craz (Post 32072315)
Now that I see the whole pic for what it is, you really dont have any loss I thought the CS card was brand new and you never got even your 1st 2% back, seems you made close to $20K, but if you Ruined your Credit thats $20K I wouldnt want. Cant understand how Citi allowed a $500 bonus if you were with them for 15 yrs, usually its only for new people (accts)

Because I was a new checking/savings customer. My credit card has been opened since 2004.
My credit score isn't effected and is still around 780.
My loss from my credit card is because I had $1485 in cashback that would have been given at my next statement closing date.

craz Feb 14, 2020 1:25 pm

If I was the OP by now I would have pulled all the hair out of my head, not easy asking for help and then getting contrary advice

OP Im not an attorney nor ever studied law. If it was me Id find an attorney who would listen and ask their advice (hopefully no charge for that) or go to a nearby university (better if night classes) and seek out a professor of law who works in Law by day(Day professors are just that and dont practice) Since asking more then 1 you will end up no different then you find yourself on here, chose 1 and unless it hits you wrong go with that

Seems its either sue in small claims, arb or walk away, alot depending on what then laws are where you live and where youd have to file.

I wouldnt simply go with whats written in this thread. I would want to know if Citi could go after me for the CB they already paid if the T&Cs say I wasnt suppose to get it, or if Citi is SOL since it was paid. I know if a bank put more money into my acct and I used it its a crime, yet I didnt do anything but spend what was given to me. If Citi legally can come after me Id be more likely to walk away and be happy I got what I did, no sense in kicking a sleeping bear and waking it up. Hate to have return the $20K over $1400

Seems all you will get on here is spec and I dont think others were doing $300K a month, so Citi might have felt it was best to get rid of them, they may or may not feel the same about you since you were alot bigger and could be they would use you to be a lesson to all out there

Again whatevr you chose Good Luck and would appreciate it if and when theres a decision and an outcome you come back and Update the thread

craz Feb 14, 2020 1:45 pm


Originally Posted by mordakky (Post 32072807)
Because I was a new checking/savings customer. My credit card has been opened since 2004.
My credit score isn't effected and is still around 780.
My loss from my credit card is because I had $1485 in cashback that would have been given at my next statement closing date.

Got it thought you had accts with them all along, dont know how long it takes to hit your report once reported

Well if they dont end reporting it will they if you go after them? I dont know ask the lawyer or professor

I dont see a loss of $1485, to me my loss would be what fees I paid for the cards and converting them into $$$

. I hear you on Principal but Id weigh that against what if anything Citi can do to me, go after me for what they already paid even thou as you stated their T&Cs said it shouldnt earn the 2% or anything or mess up my credit sometimes in Life I could be right but no sense being right and dead. Sometimes as hard as it may be it will pay to simply walk away and not look back. If thats what you should do I honestly dont know, Id want to know where I stand legally before deciding and if I was assured that if it didnt hit my credit reports by now it wont thats worth alot to me at least and to others its worth nothing

ogg Feb 14, 2020 1:46 pm

The notion that a bank will make an example of you is wrongheaded. In every bank arbitration I've heard about, there's a confidentiality agreement as part of the settlement. There's no "making an example" of anyone when both sides have to keep quiet.

Get an attorney and get after the .......s. IMHO, showing a spine is better than meekly accepting the ways banks screw us. IMHO, of course--and you're free to disagree.

(in case anyone is wondering, the word that I used above ending in ....s which was censored by the software here was a mild one referring to children born out of wedlock. It's perfectly acceptable and is not an obscenity. Jeez.)


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