tom911

No.

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Criminal-Inve...I)-At-a-Glance

Welcome to FlyerTalk

tom911

Welcome to FlyerTalk

Andy2

There is another thread where it is discussed a little more thoroughly, although like all FT threads it is disjointed.

When a seller of money orders sells $3,000-$9,999.99 of money orders in a transaction or series of transactions for cash, the seller is required to record that transaction in its a Daily Monetary Log, with information about the purchaser. That information, unlike the Currency Transaction Reports for transactions of $10,000 or more, does not go to the government.

There seems to be disagreement as to whether the purchase of $3,000 or more of money orders with debit cards and prepaid cards would cause the seller to record the transaction in its Daily Monetary Log, since no cash is directly involved. WalMart and Kroger do appear to record a purchase of money orders with a debit card or prepaid card in the log when the purchase is $3,000 of more. That does not mean that is the correct legal answer, if just means that us how they programmed their computer.

If is certainly not illegal to buy $3,000 or more of money orders. You are correct that the Structuring laws make it illegal to arrange the purchase of the money orders so as to avoid having the seller make entries into its Daily Monetary Log. I was surprised to find this out because I used to think that Structuring only applied to transactions involving the $10,000 CTR threshold. For what it is worth, most of the Structuring cases that a person reads do involve the $10,000 level.

A lot of posters do in fact buy $1,000 or $2,000 of money orders at a time but that does not mean that they are choosing those amounts to keep their information out of the Daily Monetary Log. Many of the debit cards used to purchase money orders gave a daily limit that is less than $3,000. Many cash registers can only do so many split tenders with $500 prepaid cards. A lot of people buy a little less than $2,000 of money orders at WalMart because its system can only do four $500 prepaid card transactions at a time. Finally, most of us have a limit as to how many prepaid cards or money orders we want to carry around at a time for safety and risk of loss, and for many this $1,000 or $2,000. A frustrating thing about WalMart and grocery stores is the lack of privacy compared to a bank. If you buy $3,000 or more of money orders at WalMart and the paperwork is filled out, the clerks irritatingly announce everything really loudly and someone in the Money Center line just might follow you in the parking lot and rob you. Much safer to keep it fast and low key in my opinion and let everyone in the line behind you think that you bought two money orders of $19.87 each to buy those things that You See on TV, like most of the people behind you in line are doing.

halberstram

My Walmart keeps the log book right on the counter. Names, addresses, social security numbers, birthdates, everything a thief needs to steal your identity. I won't give them my information, not because I am trying to keep my activities secret, but instead because they are so careless with that sensitive information.

shenxing

Not all WM seem to play by those rules. There's at least one I know of where anything goes. The clerks will keep selling you MOs, way past 3k, just as long as you can buy them.

The form does explicitly say that the MO must be purchased with cash

http://mileageupdate.com/wp-content/...ION-REPORT.jpg

of course I've had clerks tell me that debit = cash.

Does anyone know whether filling one of these out once allows you to purchase more than 3k?

monkeywrencher

These are the statues:

31 USC 5324 - The Structuring Statute: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5325
31 USC 5325 - Identification Statute: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5325

Andy I see what you are talking about. When reading 5324 alone it seems that "Domestic Coin and Currency Transactions" Refers only to cash but read it in conjunction with 5325.

"No financial institution may issue or sell a bank check, cashier’s check, traveler’s check, or money order to any individual in connection with a transaction or group of such contemporaneous transactions which involves United States coins or currency"

Does United States coins or currency mean physical cash or does it mean the money order is drawn in US Dollars and not a foreign currency? I don't know but my reading is that this *could* apply to a debit card transaction if you take a broad view.

If 5325 applies to a debit card my reading of the requirement that "No person shall, for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements" seems to insulate MSers because that is not the intent.

However when there are discussions about when ID is required and where to go to avoid giving it in addition to huge deposits at ATMs I'm not so sure the government could not argue that MSers are attempting to avoid reporting requirements.

I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong but there seems to be an attitude that all MS techniques are 100% legal. My only point with this post is that there are so many federal crimes and IRS regulations I don't know that anyone can say with complete certainly they are complying with all of them. Everyone has their own comfort zone and to each their own.

monkeywrencher

But at the end of the day you say that you are in fact evading reporting requirements. *assuming they apply*

Andy2

The way I interpret that form is that it is to be completed when money orders are purchased with cash and are purchased in sufficient quantity.

If the money orders were not purchased with cash, the form would not apply. Same is true for forms that exist with auto dealers. They alert the auto dealer to fill this out if a car is purchased for more than $10,000 in Cash.

That does not mean that a car can only be sold for cash. If that were the case most of us would not be driving, as we purchased our car with a check or with a credit card.

There is simply nothing illegal about buying money orders in excess of $3,000 with cash, check, a debit card or a credit card. The seller must do internal record keeping for cash transactions of $3,000 or more and do CTRs for cash transactions of $10,000 or more. The issue of whether a debit card or prepaid card is the same as cash is as far as I know an unresolved one that can be argued either way. If someone finds a true law on point, please let everyone know.

There is even one more threshold to consider, and that is the guidance the government has provided to sellers of money orders instructing them to evaluate whether a Suspicious Activity Report should be filed when money order transactions are $2,000 of more. It does not tell them to file a SAR at that level, it tells them to consider whether one should be filed. As a consequence, some sellers program their computer system to gather some more information for money order transactions in excess of $2,000. Some do not program their computer system that way, but no one knows what is done in the back office as they analyze the day's money order transactions. The customer is never supposed to be told when a SAR is filed.

As I said, there is another thread that discusses this a big more, but it can be frustrating because most posters do not understand the difference between a CTR, a SAR, the entry into the internal Daily Monetary Log, and an internal computer screen designed to gather information to allow the seller to decide later whether to do a SAR. Either that or the poster is part of the Twitter age and unwilling to compose a meaningful post and uses the term SAR for all of the above.

tuphat

Can you guys take the whole CTR, SAR, etc. discussion to the correct thread? Thanks for considering.

USFishin

I almost exclusively buy more than 3K at a time and never fill out any forms. I just have to give them my ID so they can fill in some info on the computer (I think just my name, address, DL#).

Andy2

That is the "form". The daily monetary log can be computerized, as long as it can ultimately be printed.

shenxing

Strange, when I ask for more than 3k at at the "bad" WMs they are pretty adamant about getting my SSN.

Volodath

Nah, bury the good stuff. Ups the risk/reward for diligently reading FT.

This is a great thread guys. It seems the ancient minters came out of hiding to discuss high level trouble. We new folk appreciate it.

As someone torn between BP/MO routes... if only I could BP at regular lanes. Or even Kate. I guess it's a good thing I've kept ever receipt ever.

smoothmunkey

Ratzlaf v. United States, 510 U.S. 135 might be worth your time.

andyandy

It should be noted that after the Ratzlaff decison, Congress amended § 5322 to eliminate the willfulness requirement.