Mar 28, 2014, 10:58 am
Last edit by: MasterCharge
Welcome to Manufactured Spending. If you are new here, please spend some time reading before posting. Most likely your questions have already been answered multiple times. Consider deals that you share. These threads are searchable by Google. A volatile deal may be worth holding close to the vest.
Hints
1) On FT, topics are heavily consolidated. Sometimes the title of the thread and first few posts may not properly reflect the broad range of discussion inside the thread. Be sure to visit any thread relating to the product or service you want to learn more about because you might be surprised by how in depth the discussion really is. Example: This thread... I know, the first few posts are confusing.
2) Use Google to search FT. It works a lot better than the built-in search.
Important Rules
1) MSing is very YMMV. It varies by store, manager, and right down to the cashier working at the moment. That being said, always be nice and courteous in the face of rejection. The biggest secret for success is to lay low so you can try again.
2) DO NOT spend more than you can afford. START WITH SMALL AMOUNTS TO TEST THE WATER! As an example.. don't start with a $5000 purchase of VGCs if you can't afford to float that much! Instead, buy one and try it, and scale up once you are comfortable with a new method. It's easy to lose track, or get robbed, when you are handling so much money. Getting a refund is NOT always possible.
3) DO NOT ask employees, cashiers, customer service representatives, etc... about how to MS, or about things you read on this forum. The information you read here are very specific, unknown, legal uses of products or services. Most employees, cashiers, and even managers do not know about them. At best you'll get bad information. At worst you'll create a lot of unnecessary misunderstanding.
4) It bears repeating that there are no guarantees. you could easily buy $10,000 in gift cards or some other instrument, only to discover that your method for liquidating them vanishes the very next day. MS is not "normal" financial activity ("normal" being defined by the banks), and thus is often perceived as "suspicious" even if it is "legal."
5) never underestimate the risk of criminal activity. gift cards can easily be stolen, loaded onto a compromised account, loaded in a debit card skimmer, or even fraudulent (e.g., an already used card put back on the rack).
If you have a question that does not seem to fit anywhere, or you have not found an appropriate place for it, post it here.
a helpful note from seat17D about some of the inherent risks of MS:
Take what you read with a grain of salt. No law enforcement agency cares if you are loading 5k to a bluebird per month unless you are loading your money from illegal activities like crack sales. Even at that point they only care about your crack sales, not your bluebird load.
Nobody is going to ask you "why are you loading your bluebird" or "where did you get the money you want to load on your bluebird" when you go to walmart.
Hints
1) On FT, topics are heavily consolidated. Sometimes the title of the thread and first few posts may not properly reflect the broad range of discussion inside the thread. Be sure to visit any thread relating to the product or service you want to learn more about because you might be surprised by how in depth the discussion really is. Example: This thread... I know, the first few posts are confusing.
2) Use Google to search FT. It works a lot better than the built-in search.
Important Rules
1) MSing is very YMMV. It varies by store, manager, and right down to the cashier working at the moment. That being said, always be nice and courteous in the face of rejection. The biggest secret for success is to lay low so you can try again.
2) DO NOT spend more than you can afford. START WITH SMALL AMOUNTS TO TEST THE WATER! As an example.. don't start with a $5000 purchase of VGCs if you can't afford to float that much! Instead, buy one and try it, and scale up once you are comfortable with a new method. It's easy to lose track, or get robbed, when you are handling so much money. Getting a refund is NOT always possible.
3) DO NOT ask employees, cashiers, customer service representatives, etc... about how to MS, or about things you read on this forum. The information you read here are very specific, unknown, legal uses of products or services. Most employees, cashiers, and even managers do not know about them. At best you'll get bad information. At worst you'll create a lot of unnecessary misunderstanding.
4) It bears repeating that there are no guarantees. you could easily buy $10,000 in gift cards or some other instrument, only to discover that your method for liquidating them vanishes the very next day. MS is not "normal" financial activity ("normal" being defined by the banks), and thus is often perceived as "suspicious" even if it is "legal."
5) never underestimate the risk of criminal activity. gift cards can easily be stolen, loaded onto a compromised account, loaded in a debit card skimmer, or even fraudulent (e.g., an already used card put back on the rack).
If you have a question that does not seem to fit anywhere, or you have not found an appropriate place for it, post it here.
a helpful note from seat17D about some of the inherent risks of MS:
I will speak to only the impacts and actions that have been taken (or threatened) to me personally over the years
1. Account closure - always got my money back. Moderate frequency. Little to no long-term impact UNLESS my wife was the first one to find out when her card was declined in public setting
2. Blacklisted by an FI - lower frequency. Short- to medium term impact. Eventually the FI's greed heals all wounds.
3. Blacklisted by a governmental agency -- lower frequency. Variable long-term impact as governmental agencies never actually forget, they just don't take action (see below)
4. Banned from a retail establishment -- threatened, but never actually banned. Mostly just pointed discussion from a misguided manager. Low-medium frequency.
5. Banned from an online establishment -- lower frequency, generally lower impact. Generally permanent, at least for me so far.
6. Cashback forfeited or clawed back -- generally happened to me as part of a credit card shut down. so far only forfeits and not clawbacks, but they are possible
And then there are the things law enforcement can and has done
1. Executed a warrant to subpoena my banking and other financial records without my knowledge
2. Contacted my FIs to inquire as the nature of my financial relationship
3. Frozen the portion of my assets that were currently involved in the activity they were investigating
4. Visited my home -- when I was not there -- to "interview" my spouse, etc. regarding their knowledge and involvement ... and to attempt to obtain additional documentation not already obtained by the subpoenas
5. Threatened to seize my assets. Not just the ones frozen. Not just those I currently possessed. But all assets they deemed as ever having been part of the criminal activity. (Think every GC, MO, etc. you have purchased over the past 3-5 years)
6. Threatened one or more felony charges. (Consider having to explain THAT to your wife or boss.)
And that all was for something that was completely legal, once the 'splaining was done.
Of course once LEO opens a criminal investigation, it never actually closes unless they take you to court and fail. So even though I was cleared of the charges, the original case file is out there ready to be dusted off.
In the end, my biggest concern is the extent to which something will permanently impact my marriage or ability to enter into financial contracts (felony charges would be one example). Fortunately once the initial shock of LEO's investigation wore away, both my marriage and financial relationships were intact. Very thankful both she and a few key FI's stood by me.
When you MS, you are running with scissors.
1. Account closure - always got my money back. Moderate frequency. Little to no long-term impact UNLESS my wife was the first one to find out when her card was declined in public setting
2. Blacklisted by an FI - lower frequency. Short- to medium term impact. Eventually the FI's greed heals all wounds.
3. Blacklisted by a governmental agency -- lower frequency. Variable long-term impact as governmental agencies never actually forget, they just don't take action (see below)
4. Banned from a retail establishment -- threatened, but never actually banned. Mostly just pointed discussion from a misguided manager. Low-medium frequency.
5. Banned from an online establishment -- lower frequency, generally lower impact. Generally permanent, at least for me so far.
6. Cashback forfeited or clawed back -- generally happened to me as part of a credit card shut down. so far only forfeits and not clawbacks, but they are possible
And then there are the things law enforcement can and has done
1. Executed a warrant to subpoena my banking and other financial records without my knowledge
2. Contacted my FIs to inquire as the nature of my financial relationship
3. Frozen the portion of my assets that were currently involved in the activity they were investigating
4. Visited my home -- when I was not there -- to "interview" my spouse, etc. regarding their knowledge and involvement ... and to attempt to obtain additional documentation not already obtained by the subpoenas
5. Threatened to seize my assets. Not just the ones frozen. Not just those I currently possessed. But all assets they deemed as ever having been part of the criminal activity. (Think every GC, MO, etc. you have purchased over the past 3-5 years)
6. Threatened one or more felony charges. (Consider having to explain THAT to your wife or boss.)
And that all was for something that was completely legal, once the 'splaining was done.
Of course once LEO opens a criminal investigation, it never actually closes unless they take you to court and fail. So even though I was cleared of the charges, the original case file is out there ready to be dusted off.
In the end, my biggest concern is the extent to which something will permanently impact my marriage or ability to enter into financial contracts (felony charges would be one example). Fortunately once the initial shock of LEO's investigation wore away, both my marriage and financial relationships were intact. Very thankful both she and a few key FI's stood by me.
When you MS, you are running with scissors.
Nobody is going to ask you "why are you loading your bluebird" or "where did you get the money you want to load on your bluebird" when you go to walmart.
New to Manufactured Spending? Start Here.
Aug 12, 2014, 7:24 pm
#946
Join Date: May 2014
Location: PHL
Programs: SW CP, SPG Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 571
Just a word of wisdom before you get involved in MS. It can get very costly. Make sure you are doing something to offset the fees that you'll be incurring, I made the mistake early in my MSing and didn't realize how much I was actually "spending." Each $3.95-$4.95 fee adds up quickly when your buying 30-50 GCs a month.
Aug 12, 2014, 8:12 pm
#947
Join Date: Feb 2006
Programs: HH Gold (again), US/UA/DL non-elite, ZE Presidents Circle, WN reluctant no fee convert.
Posts: 1,449
I do agree with the prior poster, but there is a way to offset the fees by utilizing cash back bonus cards and reward cards when buying in. One can determine the method, for instance, the transactions between those two types of cards do not always have to be made at the same time.
I didn't see a suggestion for the AFT (Amex For Target) card. I learned about this one just recently after rejecting the idea early on because I didn't understand its benefit. Turns out it likely would have saved me a lot of trouble after the VRs via CC waned.
For instance, I had an ethical trip wire ignited with some methods. I found myself believing GCs are meant to move goods and services, not convert to financial instruments (this is just me, not sayin' to anyone else). So, I decided instead on the AFT to be "in line" with the idea of using an ATM to convert to $ directly. It does cost more but one can recoup some of the costs by alternating between the two types of CCs as previously mentioned. I didn't see a CB card mentioned in the OP, though.
For info on AFT, see the WIKI on the thread. Best wishes.
I didn't see a suggestion for the AFT (Amex For Target) card. I learned about this one just recently after rejecting the idea early on because I didn't understand its benefit. Turns out it likely would have saved me a lot of trouble after the VRs via CC waned.
For instance, I had an ethical trip wire ignited with some methods. I found myself believing GCs are meant to move goods and services, not convert to financial instruments (this is just me, not sayin' to anyone else). So, I decided instead on the AFT to be "in line" with the idea of using an ATM to convert to $ directly. It does cost more but one can recoup some of the costs by alternating between the two types of CCs as previously mentioned. I didn't see a CB card mentioned in the OP, though.
For info on AFT, see the WIKI on the thread. Best wishes.
Last edited by jan_believes; Aug 12, 2014 at 8:25 pm Reason: changed to more generic wording
Aug 12, 2014, 8:30 pm
#948
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Chicago
Programs: UA Gold,Hyatt Platinum,Marriott Platinum,Etihad Gold
Posts: 132
OP, What are your goals from MS?
A. are you looking to meet min spends on new credit cards?
B. are you looking to just increase united miles and CSP points?
C. are you looking to generate cash back?
If A how many cards are you really looking to get? if just a few you will be able to meet min spends with your regular spending plus amazon then there is no need to get complicated.
If B there are better things you should be doing with your time, its probably not worth it for low risk activities
If C how much do you want to scale it up.
You mention up tread that you are concerned about the 95 annual fee on these cards, some of us when manufacturing hard for sign up bonuses spend more than that on gift card fees each month( and some of us make a profit in cash and utilize many gift cards.
So I guess what I'm really asking is are you looking for an occasional crutch by MSing or are you looking to convert to the MS Lifestyle
A. are you looking to meet min spends on new credit cards?
B. are you looking to just increase united miles and CSP points?
C. are you looking to generate cash back?
If A how many cards are you really looking to get? if just a few you will be able to meet min spends with your regular spending plus amazon then there is no need to get complicated.
If B there are better things you should be doing with your time, its probably not worth it for low risk activities
If C how much do you want to scale it up.
You mention up tread that you are concerned about the 95 annual fee on these cards, some of us when manufacturing hard for sign up bonuses spend more than that on gift card fees each month( and some of us make a profit in cash and utilize many gift cards.
So I guess what I'm really asking is are you looking for an occasional crutch by MSing or are you looking to convert to the MS Lifestyle
Aug 12, 2014, 8:39 pm
#949
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Indianapolis
Programs: Hilton-Diamond Lifetime Platinum AA UA, WN-CP, SPG Gold.
Posts: 7,377
Until you do it you are just a BSer,
To do it without a real goal is a waste of time.
$2.95 SMGC $500.00 x 2 and 69 cents MO Kroger's
Local SM buy $1,000 Lowe's cards get $200.00 Amex a Gift Card...
To do it without a real goal is a waste of time.
$2.95 SMGC $500.00 x 2 and 69 cents MO Kroger's
Local SM buy $1,000 Lowe's cards get $200.00 Amex a Gift Card...
Aug 12, 2014, 9:52 pm
#950
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Everywhere
Programs: Who cares... status is a Red Herring.
Posts: 733
Dude. Us spelling out here isn't any better than reading all the threads. Not blogs with arrows and circles help. There's only one thing that helps.
Trying.
Go do it. And with AP, there is virtually no risk on anything that's Visa, Amex, MC, whatever it is. AP is a back up.
So step one. Go to the store and buy a card with $500. Just one.
Step two. Liquidate.
If you can't figure it out. AP.
Then repeat. Chances are there is a solution that isn't AP. But still, AP lowers risk.
GL!
Trying.
Go do it. And with AP, there is virtually no risk on anything that's Visa, Amex, MC, whatever it is. AP is a back up.
So step one. Go to the store and buy a card with $500. Just one.
Step two. Liquidate.
If you can't figure it out. AP.
Then repeat. Chances are there is a solution that isn't AP. But still, AP lowers risk.
GL!
Aug 12, 2014, 10:07 pm
#951
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Land of the parrots and parrotheads
Programs: Several dozen
Posts: 4,820
Oh, just saw you mention United Mileage Plus, which is another United Card. The Chase cards can fund bank accounts, but that is more for meeting a new card sign up spend versus ongoing spend as it ties up capital.
$95 is steep and CSP and Explorer are basically 1x with minimal yield on a VGC-MO line of business. The yield is better if you go into the BUXX line of business, but the amount of miles generated will max at about 10-20k a year. Better to ditch and Ink out a sign on bonus?
$95 is steep and CSP and Explorer are basically 1x with minimal yield on a VGC-MO line of business. The yield is better if you go into the BUXX line of business, but the amount of miles generated will max at about 10-20k a year. Better to ditch and Ink out a sign on bonus?
Aug 12, 2014, 10:20 pm
#952
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Land of the parrots and parrotheads
Programs: Several dozen
Posts: 4,820
Indeed. And it only gets worse with higher volume. You have got to limit buying GCs to cards with 2-6x miles/points. Even then, the banksters are beginning to deny larger transactions at many stores where 2-6x can be earned. Credit the Wikis and blogs for painting the target for their laser guided missiles.
Just a word of wisdom before you get involved in MS. It can get very costly. Make sure you are doing something to offset the fees that you'll be incurring, I made the mistake early in my MSing and didn't realize how much I was actually "spending." Each $3.95-$4.95 fee adds up quickly when your buying 30-50 GCs a month.
Aug 12, 2014, 11:48 pm
#953
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 37
Being relatively new to all this myself, I have to say that if you've done your homework and still felt the need to create a post like this, then you should stick to AP and Serve by CC.
Not trying to be an *ss, but if you couldn't sift through the data and develop a strategy to start testing, then it's unlikely that you will be able to adjust and optimize as changes inevitably come down the pike.
Just my two cents
Not trying to be an *ss, but if you couldn't sift through the data and develop a strategy to start testing, then it's unlikely that you will be able to adjust and optimize as changes inevitably come down the pike.
Just my two cents
Aug 13, 2014, 7:55 am
#954
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Land of the parrots and parrotheads
Programs: Several dozen
Posts: 4,820
The MS biz is definitely dynamic and you should always run several lines of business as opportunities get shut down fairly quickly now as the cardinals follow the blogs and wikis to stamp out spending heresy. These clergymen (and women) hate on MS because it uses cards for other than what they were intended (to addict you to debt and enslave the masses).
Testing is critical as no one-size fits all works. Store and bank policies can vary by location, manager or clerk. The policies can be inconsistent or inconsistently applied. Dead deals can return to life like zombies and healthy deals can die at the stroke of a blogger's pen.
Never commit funds that you cannot afford to have lost or have tied up for long periods. Losses can be substantial, especially if you color outside the lines using false information or identities. Money can be tied up for months as when the gods of the rainforest find you have a few (or a few more than a few) Amazon accounts open under your name and social security number.
And don't forget to mind your credit score. You need to manufacture a good image. Part of that process is to have a large credit line, but use only a small fraction of it.
Testing is critical as no one-size fits all works. Store and bank policies can vary by location, manager or clerk. The policies can be inconsistent or inconsistently applied. Dead deals can return to life like zombies and healthy deals can die at the stroke of a blogger's pen.
Never commit funds that you cannot afford to have lost or have tied up for long periods. Losses can be substantial, especially if you color outside the lines using false information or identities. Money can be tied up for months as when the gods of the rainforest find you have a few (or a few more than a few) Amazon accounts open under your name and social security number.
And don't forget to mind your credit score. You need to manufacture a good image. Part of that process is to have a large credit line, but use only a small fraction of it.
Being relatively new to all this myself, I have to say that if you've done your homework and still felt the need to create a post like this, then you should stick to AP and Serve by CC.
Not trying to be an *ss, but if you couldn't sift through the data and develop a strategy to start testing, then it's unlikely that you will be able to adjust and optimize as changes inevitably come down the pike.
Just my two cents
Not trying to be an *ss, but if you couldn't sift through the data and develop a strategy to start testing, then it's unlikely that you will be able to adjust and optimize as changes inevitably come down the pike.
Just my two cents
Aug 14, 2014, 6:46 pm
#955
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 35
Thanks to the folks and accumulated wisdom here, I started my first tentative MS efforts this week.
1. AP to my spouse for 1K from CC, right now working to link a bank account to AP so that I can withdraw this 1K. I am then planning to do a reverse 1K transfer from a CC. So 2K in expenses - no fees. Excellent start.
2. Bought 0.5K worth of Simon VGC using CC, fees $2.95. Set up pin on the phone. First loaded $100 to BB on a WM customer service counter to test the waters - went well. Then went to the WM close to me and was delighted to find a fully functioning Kate. Finished loaded the rest $400 on BB. Now working on finishing the BB to Bank Account link so that I can finish the loop and withdraw the 0.5K.
3. Opened a BB for spouse. So I will have access to (5K x 2 + 1K x 2) = 12K of unloading using BB/AP. If I just go Simon VGC route - then I am looking at 20 * 3 = $60 expense for 12K -> 0.5 cent per point.
4. I am considering AGC using FG/TCB - get 10K AGC using CC, use that for Simon VGC, load into BB, Withdraw to Checking or pay CC. This would effectively pay for the Simon fees and then some.
Any thoughts folks. Am I coming along okay? Any suggestions to how to go forward.
1. AP to my spouse for 1K from CC, right now working to link a bank account to AP so that I can withdraw this 1K. I am then planning to do a reverse 1K transfer from a CC. So 2K in expenses - no fees. Excellent start.
2. Bought 0.5K worth of Simon VGC using CC, fees $2.95. Set up pin on the phone. First loaded $100 to BB on a WM customer service counter to test the waters - went well. Then went to the WM close to me and was delighted to find a fully functioning Kate. Finished loaded the rest $400 on BB. Now working on finishing the BB to Bank Account link so that I can finish the loop and withdraw the 0.5K.
3. Opened a BB for spouse. So I will have access to (5K x 2 + 1K x 2) = 12K of unloading using BB/AP. If I just go Simon VGC route - then I am looking at 20 * 3 = $60 expense for 12K -> 0.5 cent per point.
4. I am considering AGC using FG/TCB - get 10K AGC using CC, use that for Simon VGC, load into BB, Withdraw to Checking or pay CC. This would effectively pay for the Simon fees and then some.
Any thoughts folks. Am I coming along okay? Any suggestions to how to go forward.
Aug 14, 2014, 6:54 pm
#956
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Chicago
Programs: UA Gold,Hyatt Platinum,Marriott Platinum,Etihad Gold
Posts: 132
Finally after days of research and excitement bought my first Visa Debit Gift card at kroger for 500$. Cashier asked for my drivers license and i quitely asked whats the limit for getting it without showing an id, and she replied saying 100$ and then liquidated at Walmart for a Money order and no questions asked. deposited the MO in my Bank and got my money back.
Activation fee of 5.95$ + 0.70$ for MO total=6.65$ is it worth for 500 Points/Miles?
the cashier at kroger asked me for a rewards card, which i didnt recieve yet. Looks like the 4x fuel points might cover up the 6.65.
Am i missing anything here?
Activation fee of 5.95$ + 0.70$ for MO total=6.65$ is it worth for 500 Points/Miles?
the cashier at kroger asked me for a rewards card, which i didnt recieve yet. Looks like the 4x fuel points might cover up the 6.65.
Am i missing anything here?
Last edited by MileageAddict; Aug 20, 2014 at 5:55 am Reason: photo removed - too large to fit FT format
Aug 14, 2014, 9:02 pm
#957
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Everywhere
Programs: Who cares... status is a Red Herring.
Posts: 733
You nailed the process.
But IMO, I wouldn't do it for 500 miles though. $6 for 500 miles and the trouble? No way.
You need a 5x. This is all about the right bonuses. Think of it in cash value to the bank. 500 points is $5 and you spend $6. But 5x = 2,500 points = $25. Well worth $6.
But IMO, I wouldn't do it for 500 miles though. $6 for 500 miles and the trouble? No way.
You need a 5x. This is all about the right bonuses. Think of it in cash value to the bank. 500 points is $5 and you spend $6. But 5x = 2,500 points = $25. Well worth $6.
Aug 15, 2014, 6:59 am
#958
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 9
Also don't count on fuel points for the GC purchase, in my experience I only earn points on the grocery portion of the bill.
Aug 15, 2014, 7:12 am
#959
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,688
I suggest you read the Old Amex Blue thread and take it from there. You've been missing a lot but there's a lot of time to catch up as long as your K will continue to sell you those VGCs with CC. Good luck!
Aug 16, 2014, 7:32 am
#960
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,273
The MS biz is definitely dynamic and you should always run several lines of business as opportunities get shut down fairly quickly now as the cardinals follow the blogs and wikis to stamp out spending heresy. These clergymen (and women) hate on MS because it uses cards for other than what they were intended (to addict you to debt and enslave the masses).
Testing is critical as no one-size fits all works.
Testing is critical as no one-size fits all works.
Risk and money are part of this. But--time is also a factor. Do you have the time to drive the extra hour if one avenue closes or shifts? Do you even want to?