Shocking Anti Semitic incident

Old May 20, 22, 8:22 am
  #436  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CLE
Programs: UA GS+LT UC, AA LT PLT, Fairmont LT PLT, SPG PLT, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Diamond, Avis CHM.
Posts: 4,404
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer View Post
Nice try. I do not know whether they concur with everything written on their media. This is, however, not the relevant question. If they become aware or made aware of racist or hate speech, they certainly need to remove it. If not, they are responsible for the hate speech themselves and might well rightfully become liable for criminal prosecution in several countries. Facebook Germany stated to v/v the press that they do not tolerate hate speech:
This is a Tu quoque logical fallacy and personal attack. You are deflecting to attacking me for doing something wrong instead of answering the question and staying in line with this thread. As I'm sure you know, free speech in the USA is clearly not governed by the free speech allowed in Germany.
But thanks to German privacy laws, I did learn that dozens of reports were filed to Twitter and YouTube against the videos I posted as I get an email each time a report comes in. The companies ruled in my favor on all counts.

Now if you want to answer craz's legitimate question below, great. If you want to continue making this a personal attack, that is against FT rules.

Originally Posted by craz View Post
wait 1 min, what obscure sect are you talking about?? Im positive they werent just members of 1 sect that made up either of the 2 booked groups and there were religious Jews as passengers who arent a part of any sect = arent Hassidism and werent allowed to fly to BUD
friedablass likes this.
ctownflyer is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 8:40 am
  #437  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: DUS (and somewhere in transit)
Programs: LH SEN, AB PLAT, BA Gold, Hilton Lifetime Diamond, SPG Lifetime Platinum, IHG RA, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 10,140
Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
This is a Tu quoque logical fallacy and personal attack. You are deflecting to attacking me for doing something wrong instead of answering the question and staying in line with this thread. As I'm sure you know, free speech in the USA is clearly not governed by the free speech allowed in Germany.
This answer perfectly fits into the overall presentation you provide. It is correctly stated that your blog tolerates hate speech and you understand this as a "personal attack". No, it isn't. It is a simple fact.

I am fully aware of "free speech in the US" and how it is abused in particular by right wing organizations of all kind. We all saw the results in DC early last year. This is not desirable at all.

You, however, forget, that your blog is read all over the world and you need to follow the rules; in Germany and several other countries the distribution of racist statements is prohibited by law and the regulatory authorities have more than once blocked such activities and held the people responsible liable. Facebook and youTube for example block certain content for very good reason. Again, you may accept this as free legal advise. Besides that I have offered my final opinion in Post #397 and I see not reason to repeat this again and again.
craz and flospi like this.

Last edited by Flying Lawyer; May 20, 22 at 8:47 am
Flying Lawyer is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 8:51 am
  #438  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CLE
Programs: UA GS+LT UC, AA LT PLT, Fairmont LT PLT, SPG PLT, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Diamond, Avis CHM.
Posts: 4,404
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer View Post
I have offered my final opinion in Post #397 and I see not reason to repeat this again and again.
So you have no answer for why mask compliant non-Hasidic Jewish men, women, and kids on the flight were barred from flying LH. Got it.

For the record, Lufthansa's CEO met with one of these non-Hasidic Jewish passengers yesterday and apologized, so he seems more honest than LH's defenders here in admitting that this incident was indeed highly problematic. Personally I'm more interested in seeing what exactly LH will change going forward so that there is no repetition of this.
https://hamodia.com/2022/05/19/lufth...ish-passenger/
chris63 and friedablass like this.

Last edited by ctownflyer; May 20, 22 at 9:07 am
ctownflyer is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 8:57 am
  #439  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,156
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer View Post
This answer perfectly fits into the overall presentation you provide. It is correctly stated that your blog tolerates hate speech and you understand this as a "personal attack". No, it isn't. It is a simple fact. I am fully aware of "free speech in the US" and how it is abused in particular by right wing organizations of all kind. You, however, forget, that your blog is read all over the world and you need to follow the rules; in Germany and several other countries the distribution of racist statements is prohibited by law and the regulatory authorities have more than once blocked such activities and held the people responsible liable. Facebook and youTube for example block certain content for very good reason. Again, you may accept this as free legal advise.
The only way that site will change anything is if theres more $$$ to be made, which can be said about all the travel blogs, they want as many hits as they can get so as to get advertising etc etc

That said if you read the comments on most of the reg media sites its FULL of hate towards Jews yet those comments werent taken down, dont have enough time to list all the anti-semitic comments on FT over the years that are a part of Omni and the false hoods are allowed to remain posted

Unfortunately Welcome to The World the problem is its not getting better but worse. I will tell you this most of the bashers on Dans site will buy a LH tkt on LH metal today if the price was right or the least amount of miles are needed. Personally I could have saved 10s if not 100s of 1000s of miles and well over $10,000 had I flown with TK, but as long as its a Turkish govt owned carrier and Erogan is the Furer its my pleasure to spend more then I have to( OT Erogan doesnt want to let Sweeden or Finland into NATO unless they cowtail to his way of thinking, No problem I think they should throw Turkey out and bring Sweeden and Finland in, problem solved, since Erogan does whats good for him and not NATO anyways.)

Go onto his site and checkout the video of Mike Savage who they thought would be a torch bearer for the them,NOT you will find all sorts of hate and attacks on him when till now they held him in high regard. Its simple either you agree 100% with their way of thinking or youre gonna get bullied (thats if they didnt delete Savages video)Ii highly doubt that most of the passengers are active members if members at all of Dans site

Last edited by craz; May 20, 22 at 9:09 am
craz is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 9:10 am
  #440  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CLE
Programs: UA GS+LT UC, AA LT PLT, Fairmont LT PLT, SPG PLT, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Diamond, Avis CHM.
Posts: 4,404
Originally Posted by craz View Post
Go onto his site and checkout the video of Mike Savage who they thought would be a torch bearer for the them,NOT you will find all sorts of hate and attacks on him when till now they held him in high regard. Its simple either you agree 100% with their way of thinking or youre gonna get bullied (thats if they didnt delete Savages video)
Savage deleted his own video, because he went on national TV and identified the Hasidim on the plane as Lubavitchers and said that Lubavitchers throw rocks at Shabbos violators. Now there is plenty of fair criticism against Lubavitchers and I've always said that I'd happy to discuss it with you in person if you ever stop by CLE, but clearly these were not Lubavitchers and Lubavitchers aren't a rock throwing sect...

Savage outed himself as a dummy and he got rightly called out for that.
friedablass likes this.
ctownflyer is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 9:24 am
  #441  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,156
Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
Savage deleted his own video, because he went on national TV and identified the Hasidim on the plane as Lubavitchers and said that Lubavitchers throw rocks at Shabbos violators. Now there is plenty of fair criticism against Lubavitchers and I've always said that I'd happy to discuss it with you in person if you ever stop by CLE, but clearly these were not Lubavitchers and Lubavitchers aren't a rock throwing sect...

Savage outed himself as a dummy and he got rightly called out for that.
On this we agree, but the hatred that was posted simply due to everyone thinking he was gonna agree with them was uncalled for. Its 1 thing to point out that hes wrong and he most certainly was, its another to rip him apart as was done. I guess no one knew he was so against Lubavitch and we all know what happens if you say anything anti_Chabad on your site they all come out from under their rocks, since its not possible for Chabad to be wrong in any way

As for meeting when I used to drive to Detroit on a reg basis I PMed you funny what had to be dzs of trips you were never around. Now Id do better if I spoke to a cement wall, and JJ is even worse but its the MO makeup of your Chabad members. And I didnt want to meet to discuss Chabad but something else which you still feel is AOK to do and I feel is only potential fodder for the haters).

Last edited by craz; May 20, 22 at 9:30 am
craz is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 9:29 am
  #442  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CLE
Programs: UA GS+LT UC, AA LT PLT, Fairmont LT PLT, SPG PLT, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Diamond, Avis CHM.
Posts: 4,404
Originally Posted by craz View Post
On this we agree, but the hatred that was posted simply due to everyone thinking he was gonna agree with them was uncalled for. Its 1 thing to point out that hes wrong and he most certainly was, its another to rip him apart as was done. I guess no one knew he was so against Lubavitch and we all know what happens if you say anything anti_Chabad on your site they all come out from under their rocks, since its not possible for Chabad to be wrong in any way

As for meeting when I used to drive to Detroit on a reg basis I PMed you funny what had to be dzs of trips you were never around. Now Id do better if I spoke to a cement wall, and JJ is even worse but its the MO makeup of your Chabad members
All I saw on DDF was him being ripped apart for bring factually wrong as these were no Lubavitchers.

And sir, you have not sent me dozens of PMs about passing through CLE. There were perhaps a couple when I was traveling, which isn't too surprising for a travel blogger. But by all means, let's try to do lunch or dinner next time you pass through town.
ctownflyer is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 9:56 am
  #443  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,156
Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
All I saw on DDF was him being ripped apart for bring factually wrong as these were no Lubavitchers.

And sir, you have not sent me dozens of PMs about passing through CLE. There were perhaps a couple when I was traveling, which isn't too surprising for a travel blogger. But by all means, let's try to do lunch or dinner next time you pass through town.
this discussion is OT and shouldnt be on this thread, but I havent been to Detroit in close to 6 yrs and my friend (old traveling buddy) doesnt live there any longer so DTW and CLE are off my radar. Plus those PMs were back over 10 yrs ago. But nice try

The fact is your supporters will mostly call for boycotting LH and they will be the 1st ones flying LH if LH has a great fare and they can save some bucks and many have said so. Over the years with Erogan as Pres of Turkey I could have saved tons of miles and $$$$$ by purchasing TK tkts I didnt and wont. UA CXed my EWR-YUL flight that I purchased as part of my AC tkt to TLV, now its either leaving @ 10:40am and 6 hrs in YUL and its very hard for me to get to EWR by 8am or a 3:30pm flight and a 65 min layover. Of cause I can get TK tkts that will get me for Succos before Shabbos but I wont fly or buy TK, so theres a very good chance I wont make my connecting YUL flight have to claim flight in vain and be in NY for Succos, And Im willing to do that then have anything to do with TK as long as its govt owned and Erogan is the Furer a true Lover of Jews and Israelis if there ever was one. And No I dont have a TK membership and dont fly using TK miles

I even sent you a PM last week that having a Disclaimer up and allowing the activity to be conducted on thread is as if you didnt have a disclaimer at all. That thread does not and cant exist on FT simply due to it being fully against the T&Cs of the programs at hand and break the T&Cs of Coupon Connection and you are history. Period Full Stop

Last edited by craz; May 20, 22 at 10:03 am
craz is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 10:08 am
  #444  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CLE
Programs: UA GS+LT UC, AA LT PLT, Fairmont LT PLT, SPG PLT, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Diamond, Avis CHM.
Posts: 4,404
Originally Posted by craz View Post
The fact is your supporters will mostly call for boycotting LH and they will be the 1st ones flying LH if LH has a great fare and they can save some bucks and many have said so. Over the years with Erogan as Pres of Turkey I could have saved tons of miles and $$$$$ by purchasing TK tkts I didnt and wont. UA CXed my EWR-YUL flight that I purchased as part of my AC tkt to TLV, now its either leaving @ 10:40am and 6 hrs in YUL and its very hard for me to get to EWR by 8am or a 3:30pm flight and a 65 min layover. Of cause I can get TK tkts that will get me for Succos before Shabbos but I wont fly or buy TK, so theres a very good chance I wont make my connecting YUL flight have to claim flight in vain and be in NY for Succos, \
Not sure why you are lumping together me and my followers. Everyone has to make their own ethical and financial decisions and I respect that.
Personally I also have avoided TK, but I don't look down on people that don't have the means to always do that.

FWIW, 75% of DD poll responders have said they won't fly LH even if they are cheaper or more convenient: https://www.dansdeals.com/more/news/...asco-frankfurt.
ctownflyer is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 10:30 am
  #445  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,156
Originally Posted by ctownflyer;34266074.

FWIW, 75% of DD poll responders have said they won't fly LH even if they are cheaper or more convenient: [url
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/news/airline-news/happened-2-weeks-since-lufthansas-shocking-anti-semitic-fiasco-frankfurt.
hey all I can say is its 1 thing to vote in a poll and its very different when it comes time to purchase a tkt. Take a poll and everyone is a righteous person, sure its easy just click on the most moral choice. Whats important is what a person does when its not a poll but smack in front of them After all Hellary won in '16 just ask the pollsters and those who answered them, on their to vote and after voting Or '20 when Trump thought he was going to win by a landslide, well the Pres did win by a landslide only it was Biden that won, so much for a poll

I wish they would stick with their principles and probably will for $5 or $10 I doubt they will if LH is cheaper then that, so dont say lets boycott if you know you wont adhere to it. Then isnt it a case of the kettle calling the pot black, they accuse LH of putting everyone into 1 group and now they want to say LH and its employees are anti-semites. So it seems its AOK to put everyone into 1 group as long as they arent the ones being grouped.

Last edited by craz; May 20, 22 at 10:35 am
craz is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 10:38 am
  #446  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CLE
Programs: UA GS+LT UC, AA LT PLT, Fairmont LT PLT, SPG PLT, Hilton Diamond, Hyatt Diamond, Avis CHM.
Posts: 4,404
Originally Posted by craz View Post
I wish they would stick with their principles and probably will for $5 or $10 I doubt they will if LH is cheaper then that, so dont say lets boycott if you know you wont adhere to it. Then isnt it a case of the kettle calling the pot black, they accuse LH of putting everyone into 1 group and now they want to say LH and its employees are anti-semites. So it seems its AOK to put everyone into 1 group as long as they arent the ones being grouped.
I have not called for an LH boycott, I believe everyone can make their own ethical and financial decisions and don't need me to tell them what to do.
It's not about one employee though, it's about the higher-ups that green lighted this decision and about the company's response to the incident that will influence people's decisions.
ctownflyer is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 11:16 am
  #447  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,156
Originally Posted by ctownflyer View Post
I have not called for an LH boycott, I believe everyone can make their own ethical and financial decisions and don't need me to tell them what to do.
It's not about one employee though, it's about the higher-ups that green lighted this decision and about the company's response to the incident that will influence people's decisions.
Have you made your thoughts known boycott wise by posting that you werent at this time calling for it??

I agree it wasnt just 1 employee but I also dont believe that AS is LHs policy As Ive posted countless times had the crew had plastic ties or if they did and used them this mess wouldnt have taken place. Had the person/s who put the ban in place realized its WRONG and instead warned every passenger flying to BUD that was on the JFK flight 1 false move and thats that, this mess wouldnt have happened. Now wheres the proof it was done due to anti-semitism?? In order for that to be the case you would have to ID the employee/s who were involved and have postings etc showing that they are an AS Forget that supervisors video I honestly believe you are trying to make it out to be what it isnt.and is simply a very stressed supervisor and in her bad English was trying to say Since you are all 1 traveling group of religious Jews since some of you refused to listen to the crews instructions its come down that everyone of the group is banned for 24 hrs They werent banned for being Jews outright but they happen to be Jewish, the main thing was they were all traveling together in 1 group. Of cause we know they werent all flying together in 1 group. But it appeared that way in m y mind that doesnt mean it is a case of AS. Just like with the Buffalo murderer they didnt come out and say it was the work of a white racist, till they had the proof that in fact that is what it was

That said had every religious Jew followed the instructions of the crew we also wouldnt be here today. And I will assume had they listened once spoken to and followed what they were told then no one would have been tied up, no one reported and no complaints to the JFK Capt,LH HQ or the BUD Capt. It was the constant not following the crews instructions that caused the problem

So yes LH should have handled it much better but more IMPORTANT had they listened to what the crew told them NOTHING would have happened. Fault to those religious passengers who didnt care 1 bit what they told and Fault to the employee/s who combined all the religious passengers into 1 group of flying together which wasnt the truth
Flying Lawyer likes this.
craz is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 3:41 pm
  #448  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,156
As a friend of mine just put it. The punishment might not have fit the crime, BUT had the crime not been committed there never would have been any punishment, so its those passengers who didnt follow the crews instructions where the Fault mainly lies.

The main problem is LH will do its due diligence and if it finds wrong doing take care of it. But what about the religious passengers who in general dont listen to what the crews tell them they can or cant do, if they dont change then this is asking to repeated again just like KLM with the girls before LH a short time ago

Both sides must take action since the problem is with both sides.
pdeut likes this.
craz is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 3:58 pm
  #449  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by craz View Post
As a friend of mine just put it. The punishment might not have fit the crime, BUT had the crime not been committed there never would have been any punishment, so its those passengers who didnt follow the crews instructions where the Fault mainly lies.

The main problem is LH will do its due diligence and if it finds wrong doing take care of it. But what about the religious passengers who in general dont listen to what the crews tell them they can or cant do, if they dont change then this is asking to repeated again just like KLM with the girls before LH a short time ago

Both sides must take action since the problem is with both sides.
explain why a group of girls should listen to a crew that makes up a rule and by listening to the rule will cause them to starve the whole flight ?
friedablass likes this.
Ijones027 is offline  
Old May 20, 22, 4:21 pm
  #450  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,156
Originally Posted by Ijones027 View Post
explain why a group of girls should listen to a crew that makes up a rule and by listening to the rule will cause them to starve the whole flight ?
as long as a crew member tells you to do something, you do it and bring it up the ladder after the flight. If not then dont complain when what happens happens
craz is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread