craz

personally unless there was proof that the person/s who banned all those who were black was indeed a racist I wouldnt say it was a racist act, a wrong act yes And if everyone said what LH did was anti-semitism that doesnt mean it therefore was unless theres proof that the person/s who issued the Banning was in fact an AS

If there was a BLM protest and 10s of 1000s showed up w/o being masked when there was a mandate to be, is that enough reason for everyone else not to mask up? thats the excuse the frum neighborhoods used as to why they no longer had to mask up. So someone does something wrong means I can do it as well?

I dont see it as you do with LH it was Wrong what they did and The CEO has stated as much. I understand who ever did it thought its OK since it was the only way to punish those who didnt listen to the crews instructions, which was Wrong although they meant to punish the culprits, and it doesnt matter if the passengers were Jews,Arabs,Blacks,Greens, Leftists,Rightists etc etc you dont punish people who look alike simply due to not knowing whom exactly to punish, but in and of itself that doesnt mean its a racist or anti-semitic act

And just as the USSC is trying to find out who leaked the rough draft of its Roe Vs wade case and heads will roll if and when its known, so too LH needs to take it up the ladder as far as it goes and weed out those who made such a Wrong decision as to ban All the religious Jews on the flight since they didnt know the exact culprits and for not 1st checking to see if in fact they were all traveling as 1 group or not

Flying Lawyer

So if the same thing happened to football fans and the aggressive offenders weren't identified, 125+ football fans on the flight are banned from their connection and the next 24 hours I would hold this neither discrimination nor racist. In particular the Germans have a legal police concept of averting of danger. German police and authorities do not wait until something happens. This is the reason why Germany doesn't sell fire-weapons over the counter, doesn't wait until a demonstration of right of left wings becomes a riot and doesn't wait until their parliament is occupied by persons Germans would consider to be terrorists and Trump called loyal Americans or so. German police tries try to prevent this from happening at an early stage. I am aware the US is somehow different, but when being in Germany do as the Germans do. What I would have done and did in the past in comparable situations is to do everything to distance myself from activities I do not sympathize with. I did that once in my life on a domestic flight at Octoberfest time out of Munich and more than once in a football stadium.

craz

I believe if my memory serves me correct that in fact some Carriers have indeed off loaded or didnt allow to board in the 1st place the fans from a given football team traveling either to or from a game due to the drunkness or unruliness, while others issued warnings what the outcome would be should they act up on the flight. the problem is Manchester United fans flying back from a game in Germany act up and its decided to off load them.By chance even thou Im an American I am a MU fan and flew to the game NY-LHR-MUC Im wearing a MU team shirt and therefore Im also prevented from flying although I had no idea they would even be 1 other fan on the flight yet alone 125 others in team shirts , had the baner looked at my PNR they would have seen I made an immediate connection @ LHR coming and was to do so going back and therefore had Nothing to do with the others, yet I was banned for simply wearing a MU shirt and therefore I MUST be a part of the MU group. thats so WRONG and if you cant ID the exact culprits then unfortunately you shouldnt ban everyone by saying they are all a part of that group. What should be done is to come up with a way to ID those who were the problem and not put anyone not positively IDed into the group being punished.

So since LH had no idea it seems which passengers were the culprits on the JFK flight, it may have been those with 1 of the 2 groups or could be they werent with either group but flying on their own. they should have simply told each passenger holding a BP to BUD that what happened happened but should it repeat itself on the BUD flight those culprits will pay the price. Now if the Capt of the BUD flight refused to fly the plane with them aboard then Im sure there are T&Cs in place of how to proceed, either switch Capts or off load those he wont allow on his/her flight. A cop cant pull over say 3 cars and give each a tkt for running a red light since he was distracted but knows at least 1 of them had to have gone thru it, he has to let them all go

friedablass

It seems that football fans will be continued to be used rather than using blacks, Muslims, Indians, Hispanics, etc in order to make it fit a certain narrative. Same with conveniently ignoring my question in my post prior to that one because it doesn't fit the narrative. There's nothing to argue about then.

craz

Did you read my last post? The fact is in the past all the members of a soccer teams fan club that flew to a game were denied boarding or off loaded once boarded since a bunch of them were drunk and/or unruly.I believe it was English fans and more then once. All were bunched together even if they didnt sit together or were perfect angels. No one accused the Carrier of being anti-British or anti-Football, they were removed in order to make sure the flight didnt have any problems once airborne. And yes those type of fans had previous problems and not only those from England. So the carrier and police know that it may not be each individual that did something but that type did in the past

Unfortunately the way some Hassidic or Hassidic looking people have acted in the past has cast a bad shadow on any and all religious Jews who travel and alot of the crews just hope that their flight wont add to the statistics.

Flying Lawyer

For a very good reason as their is no Jewish or even orthodox Jewish race. Judaism is religion. Religion is a protected private interest. However, nobody was prevented from his onward flight as a consequence of religion but because of his publically shown membership to a certain group of people with unidentified members causing trouble. No difference to the football example. By the way: i read on Wikipedia that members of this group tend to classify all critics about their discriminative behaviour against secular as anti-semitim. This explains quite a lot.

Flying Lawyer

Thank you for this confession. Very honest. You are, however, obviously pleading you own case and so more promoting your own business of your blog and integrated businesses. Just for the record without any whatsoever personal comment.

Ijones027

every one of your statements are false, judaism is a race you can join but it has separate DNA if you didn't convert that's the orgin of them, people were denided on appearance more then being hasdic it was proven any sign of religion was enough. to say that they're the same as the football team meaning lu was wrong because they apologized to the team if they weren't wrong why else apologize, your wiki stories can easily be replaced with any zion of elders, jewish takeover theory, to prove my point let's insert the statistics of black people going to jail more then white people on this forum as right to be pulled over more , searched more etc, let's see the difference in responses to that

ctownflyer

Not exactly a state secret.
https://www.dansdeals.com/about-us/

fassy

what? I appreciate diverse opinions but this… is just too weird

friedablass

Yes, I read your post and here we go again using the soccer or any sports team as an example which further rides my point home that using any other example doesn't fit the narrative so therefore will not be used.

The continued use of solely this example and the refusal to substitute with any other example (i.e. black, Hispanic, Asian, Muslim etc) is quite telling because if any of those were used, for ex. black, you would not honestly be able to say that there was zero discrimination and it was only because of the way they dress - blacks don't all dress the same and their skin is not clothing so since clothing can't be used as an excuse, then blacks can't/won't be used as an example.

Furthermore, by saying that these passengers were only grouped together because of the way they dress and had zero to do with discrimination against a religious group, you are failing to address the question brought up numerous times by ctownflyer as to why men that were not dressed similarly to the ultra orthodox at all, and women who were surely not dressed like them, were denied boarding the connection as well. Failing to address this, further points to the fact that when it doesn't fit the narrative then we will just conveniently ignore these glaring facts and not respond to them.

Using the example of the sports group, let's say there were multiple members of the group that were not wearing any type of sports uniform and were traveling on separate PNRs but were denied boarding because the airline had a list of members names that were part of that team. Was that still collective punishment due to wearing the same clothing?

Lastly, are we going to conflate drunken passengers with passengers that broke masking rules and gathered in the galleys? Are these equally dangerous and disruptive?

The people who want to continue to believe whatever their negative preconceived notions are with regard to religious Jews are going to continue to look for and find only the information on this group that fits that specific agenda. Are they going to even bother to look at the 4 minute video I posted above, let alone the excellent series by Peter? Absolutely not, because it will blow every single presumption (that in their mind is fact), to smithereens and it's too difficult for them to live with that reality.

Kyle Friedman

story relegated to the back-ages of a flying forum. exciting stuff

friedablass

So it's ok to discriminate based on religion? Are you aware that there are laws in most civilized countries against discrimination based on race, color, religion, gender, and national origin? (Maybe even more than that, but I know for sure that these are on record in the USA.)

"Unidentified members causing trouble"?? Do you seriously believe that? You openly admit that the people who broke the rules were dressed in a specific fashion - namely like ultra Orthodox Jews with side-locks, beards, white shirts, black suits, hats, etc - and therefore everyone who dressed like that was banned just like people wearing the same sports uniform. Ultra orthodox Jews dress in this specific way, and are very easily identified as such. When was the last time you saw any Muslims, Christians, Hindus, or Sikhs (or any other religion) dressed like the ultra orthodox Jew do? Of course the offenders were identified as Jews and saying otherwise is both laughable and false because the LH supervisor clearly admitted as much when she stated that "the Jews were the ones who caused the mess". And the proof is in the pudding because not only were Jews who dressed the same/similar to the offenders banned, but male Jews who weren't dressed that way at all, as well as women were banned too. This cannot be explained in the context of a sports team all wearing a uniform so this will continue to not be addressed.

"No difference to the football example" - except it's very different. As I wrote in my post above, it's quite obvious that since the only example that fits the narrative is a sports team, then that's what will continued to be used - anything else is going to cause a huge hole in the picture being painted so none of it will be used.

ETA: The fact that a negative assumption from Wikipedia was quoted in this post and accepted as gospel, further proves that only information that fits the agenda will be acknowledged; anything else will be discarded and ignored.

ctownflyer

You know that DNA companies identify people as ethnically Jewish, yes? As did Hitler for that matter. As does the EU as mentioned upthread for religious and racial discrimination.
https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/...wish-Ancestry-

So yes, Judaism/Jews are a religion and a race.

craz

well1stly since this has become a come out thread I will also. I am a Shomer Shabbos male who wears a black hat and a black suit and white shirt on Shabbos with a beard too boot, but dont travel dressed like that (except with the beard ). so I guess you can say Im Litvish w/a twist

I already addressed your Black question up thread and said had 125 black men been banned from flying that doesnt mean the person who banned them was/is a racist. In order to call that person/s a racist youd have to dig alot further and see if that is in fact the truth or not. I couldnt care 1 bit if every single media outlet said it was due to Racism. But my case with the Indian passengers out of LHR they were dressed in the traditional Indian clothes, I wouldnt want a repeat of that flight and Im not anti-Indian

As to why all the religious were grouped together is due to not having the knowledge that a Gur Hassid isnt Satmar, that Satmar isnt Visnitz etc etc what seems to have mattered is if you were outwardly looking like a religious Jew. That doesnt mean the person doing it is an AS. true story a friend did their Army tour by the Kotel, I went 1 time to spend time with him and I couldnt believe how he waved all the Goyim thru w/o checking them even the ladies hand bags he didnt check, when I asked him why he said Im not afraid of what a non-religious Jew might be carrying. When I told him they werent Jewish he said how did I know. I also asked him why he was stopping the Sefardi Jews he said they are Arabs not Sefardim. So a religious Jew was on the plane they didnt know it wasnt 1 cohesive group they thought everyone was 1 group coming from the same place. That may speak of ignorance but doesnt mean its a case of AS

So with the football fans if a person wasnt dressed in any manner with the teams colors then you wouldnt think they were part of that group, when I travel I dress in my everyday clothes no suit, , causal and baseball cap. Many a time after a frum person has checked in be it a hotel or airline, the person bad mouths them to me you should see the look on their face when I say I guess you feel the same way about me. and yes if possible I report it. Ive also said how many a time a person is going down the aisle to try and make a minyan when we land at the gate since they have to say kaddish and on avg 9.7 times out of 10 dont ask me but will ask the guy sitting in front of me or across the aisle

Officer the light was gonna turn green 30 secs after I went thru it, its not like I was going 100mph and blew thru it, I even came to a complete full stop. Point is when it comes to listening to the crews instructions its not well its not like we didnt hit anyone or were going to damage something. Its all the same and some folks are still banned from some Carriers here because of refusing to properly mask up. Hey LY taxis away from the gate or to it with 10s of people up and about doesnt mean you can it on the
other carriers as well

Lastly if a person walks up to a religious Jew and sucker punches him and is caught and when asked by the police why did you do it and answers I hate people who dress in black is 1 thing, if he said I hate all Jews thats another, since the former reason isnt due to being an anti-semite while the later answer is. So just cause an outwardly Jewish person is hit doesnt mean its an anti-semitic act, you need to know why they did it in order to say the hitter was an anti-semite. And thats why I keep saying so far what happened was WRONG but theres no proof it was due to anti-semitism it might have been it may have not been

I hope you get it now, Going to a supermkt in Buffalo to kill as many black people as you can is being a racist, going into a supermkt that you pick out of random and happen to kill alot of black people may be due to being a racist or maybe it turned out that thats who were shopping at the time you went in and simply wanted to kill as many people as you could and yes when afterwards checking out that person it may be found in fact they are racist even thou thats not why they killed those people thht day or that there is nothing linking him/her to being a racist

So at any time did that supervisor curse Jews out for being Jewish or say the problems with The World is due to the Jews or The Jews control the media or all the Worlds banking system. I didnt hear that , I did hear her in broken English try to say the reason you cant fly to BUD is since you all are a part of 1 group and several members decided they dont have to listen to the crews instructions therefore the whole group even the innocent ones cant fly, which was what she was told by someone.Yes it was WRONG to do that especially since it wasnt only 1 group traveling together, but Im still waiting a week later for proof that the person/s who issued the ban is an AS and hates Jews. Banning Jews doesnt mean youre an AS, and Banning blacks doesnt mean youre a racist