dj_jay_smith

What upgrade is this?

They have the yin-yang 2-4-2 configuration on all their long haul aircraft (in CW) and there are no upgrades to change this ongoing or announced so far.

JohnRain

Exactly, and you have direct aisle access on quite a few of those seats.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...-world-changes
It's only a rumour, but that's already more than LH has to offer.

At the risk of repeating myself: I'm interested in finding out why LH has selected an inferior seat configuration compared to (most) all of its major competitors.

mamb0

I can't find that interview but in a German Newspaper Franz said that LH does believe that the configurations of some competitors cannot be operated profitably. It is as simple as that.

JohnRain

Interesting. I guess only time will tell, but once you've flown on a plane with a 1-2-1 configuration, you (or at least I) can't go back.

CPH-Flyer

Except the window seats and the two middle seats, when your neighbours are sleeping they require quite a step and balancing act to get over. So that leaves BA's aisle seats with direct aisle access... In my count that would make 6 seats in each row without direct aisle access, compared to LH's 2.

vbroucek

So be happy and keep it for yourself... I always travel with my SO and hate the fact that I cannot have window seat and her sitting next to me...

JohnRain

That's all fascinating, but it's beside the point.
As long as nobody has convincingly answered my question, I'll continue posing it: Why has LH decided against a 1-2-1 configuration when most top airlines agree that it's the way to go and are in the process of refurbishing their fleets accordingly?

oliver2002

Simple economics: the onboard real estate cannot be used effectively with a 1-2-1 config. You're not the first to pose the question... LH did look at the SQ seat, but its too heavy for LH ops and the idea of sleeping diagonal on a wide seat/bench didn't appeal to testers. Also LH prefers an open cabin layout in C & F as part of its design concept so reverse herringbone or suite like BA cabins are out.

You're not the first to pose the question. See upthread.

JohnRain

Thanks for your reply, oliver2002, but if it's not economical, why are so many top airlines introducing it then? (Including LX, whose entire longhaul fleet already has a configuration that comes close to a 1-2-1)

Well, judging from the feedback on this and on other threads it seems that LH's preferences aren't in line with its customers' preferences.

oliver2002

Well, reading all the wailing here and VFT about the supposedly terrible new C seat, especially the horrid footsie arrangement, I often sit in a LH flight in the middle of the night an wonder why people are fast asleep and in general not awake suffering in contorted agony.

PS: LX is by no means 1-2-1.

JohnRain

While LH's new C seat certainly isn't terrible, it's definitely inferior to what many of the world's best airlines are introducing (or have already introduced) in their fleets. QR, EK, EY, CX, SQ, VS (to name just the best) can't be all wrong.
And to prevent the "QR, EK, EY don't have to be profitable" argument that will certainly come up: AA, DL, AC, SK and even AF signed up for 1-2-1. (And I'm certainly forgetting a few others).

That's why I said that LX has a configuration that comes close to a 1-2-1
(every other row is 1-2-1)

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

As has been pointed out, there is a reason LH has adopted it's seating - real estate.

LH gets 92 full-flat business class seats in a space that someone like SQ can only fit 66 (if you look at SQ's a380 all business class upper deck seat plan, and take out the seats where LH has it's F section, you'll get the numbers).

Obviously LH feels (and has done for a long time) that it can sell seats in that number, enough times, for it to make it worth its while. LH has had enormous business class cabins for a very long time... close to 100 seats on its larger aircraft. This is not an experiment where they're testing the waters.

If they couldn't sell/use the seats often enough, they'd put more economy, or premium economy seating in place of business class.

In some cases, LH is more expensive than SQ on the SIN-FRA service... so they must be getting the mix at least partially right. (And no doubt LH has plenty of German companies with whom they have special corporate rates.)

Is the product inferior? A friend of mine recently did an award booking with both SQ and LH on the A380. They're a real plane geek and this was their first major long-haul business class experience. TBH, they thought both the LH and SQ seats had their winning points, and their downsides. There wasn't a stand-out leader.

Personally I would take the new LH seat over BA's club world. I'd probably take the LH seat over SQ's old 'box' suites.

CPH-Flyer

EK's huge fleet of 77W, -200ER and -200LR all come with 2-3-2 in business class. EK will only give you direct aisle access on all seats on the A380. You can get to fly pretty far with EK in a middle seat in business class, I don't think EK currently has any plans to change that.

JohnRain

I agree with the above. In the past this strategy has certainly worked quite well for LH. Corporate Germany will probably always fly LH, no matter what the C cabin looks like. What I'm less certain about is whether going forward, with so many competitors upgrading their product, LH will still be the carrier of choice for all those that can afford (time-wise) to make a stopover in order to fly with a superior product. I'm definitely a plane geek and I love LH probably more than most, but after having completed quite a few legs with LH's new C as well as with the competition (EK, EY, QR, CX, SQ), I will no longer fly LH in the future if I can avoid it. It's not just the seat configuration that's superior, it's the food, the IFE, the lounges, etc.
It's a sad thing to say but IMO the whole Business Class experience is just so much better on all of the airlines I just mentioned. Plus, it's also (significantly) cheaper most of the times.
If you add to that the enhancements of the M&M program, as well as the fact that LH doesn't treat its elites as it did in the past, you don't have to be an airline analyst to predict that LH's future looks pretty grim. The recent evolution of its share price is certainly a good indicator. As mentioned upthread, there's a distinct risk that LH will be kicked out of the DAX before the end of the year because its market capitalization is dwindling.

Absolutely correct. I was merely highlighting the fact that you can fly with EK in a 1-2-1 cabin if you desire. The same thing is true for all other carriers I mentioned. Take QR for example: all their new planes (A380, A350, 787) that will be delivered over the coming years will have a 1-2-1 cabin. I recently flew on the A380 and on the 787 in C and it's so good that I understand why QR doesn't even bother installing an F cabin in the 787 and in the A350 anymore. It feels like F compared to LH's new C.

CPH-Flyer

So, one of your key examples sees no reason to implement direct aisle access in the main part of the fleet (by number of aircraft, don't know by number of seats). They, like Lufthansa, may see issues with making money on the lower usage of the realestate.

The Qatar business class is indeed very nice. But the J cabin on the 787 is fairly small, so it probably doesn't not matter too much how well they use the space. The size of the Lufthansa cabins on the A380 and 747-8 could make it matter more.