|
Originally Posted by ajamieson
Sjoerd I disagree with every aspect of your analysis. The decision of KLM to pull out of the UK domestic market in 2000 was one of the key reasons a lot of UK customers left FD a few years' back; KLM foolishly assumed UK flyers simply wanted to reach far-flung destinations via AMS, ignoring the lucrative domestic market and the existance of competition. If anyone in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Leeds Bradford, Birmingham or Manchester wishes to fly to Kuala Lumpur or Addis Abbaba they have the option of more frequent connections and classier service with two other major alliances through LHR. In the case of Manchester they are quite likely to have a direct flight too. In the case of Belfast they no longer have a choice at all. Why should anyone want to put up with atrocious outsourced ground handling used by KLM in the UK and a crap frequent flyer program when they can get top level service with OneWorld or Star? It is also untrue that the majority of airline customers do not partake in frequent flyer programs. Any basic analysis of the US market in particular will tell you otherwise. And to claim KLM has the best frequent flyer program is simplistic in the extreme. Best for what? As demonstrated here on countless occasions, Flying Dutchman is much more appealing in theory than in practice. Personally I'd rather have a less generous program that did what it promised in an efficient manner. As for a "crap frequent flyer program", this year (2005) only, I have been able to get flights AMS - PRG - AMS for myself and my partner at exactly the dates and times that I wanted, as well as upgrades to C class both ways for myself and my partner AMS - CUR - AMS. One return trip to the Far east in C class, and I already earned some 38,000 miles. Now you try to get a flight on CX if you have many miles with them (as I do), and see how the frequent flyer programs compare. I agree that KLM makes mistakes and they are not perfect. But I have had issues with CX, BD, LH over the last couple of years that prove that your claim of "top level service with OneWorld or Star" is simply ridiculous. (for instance, I have been fighting with the Marco Polo Club (CX) helpdesk for almost a year now to get missing miles credited, and I am still waiting for these miles to appear.) |
Originally Posted by Sjoerd
KLM has done the math and figured out that they don't need that many UK-based clients and that they can make more money from the Dutch market.
More please ! :D . |
Last night when I enquired what to do to have my miles moved to NW I was told that the request would have to be in by the beginning of May!
Since from the second half of May onward they will not process those requests any more since the new program will be available WORLDWIDE...... So be ware that the door to escape to NW will close the first week of May! :td: FYI: ALL FARES earn 100% miles with CO but SOME might only earn 50% ELITE miles. |
Originally Posted by Sjoerd
As for a "crap frequent flyer program", this year (2005) only, I have been able to get flights AMS - PRG - AMS for myself and my partner at exactly the dates and times that I wanted, as well as upgrades to C class both ways for myself and my partner AMS - CUR - AMS. One return trip to the Far east in C class, and I already earned some 38,000 miles. Now you try to get a flight on CX if you have many miles with them (as I do), and see how the frequent flyer programs compare. I agree that KLM makes mistakes and they are not perfect. But I have had issues with CX, BD, LH over the last couple of years that prove that your claim of "top level service with OneWorld or Star" is simply ridiculous. (for instance, I have been fighting with the Marco Polo Club (CX) helpdesk for almost a year now to get missing miles credited, and I am still waiting for these miles to appear.) Have been a UA MP member for years with most activity in 2002 (both UA transatlantic C/cl and SQ to Asia). Mileage earning possibilities are a joke (C/cl earns a staggering 125% i.e. a 25% bonus compared to M/cl) and if you can even use the mileage, for upgrades you need to have booked in the more expensive buckets and are charged a ridiculous amount of miles. Keep my UA account current by the occasional intra Asian flight on SQ, but spend my money where I get more oomph! |
The current FD program (well, pre-E/N fare nonsense) is a great program. The problem has alwasy been in the administration, not what's on paper.
My contact at KL tells me that one of the most significant changes in the new program will be accountability, information, and empowerment of agents. We shall see if the new program leaves them anything to be accountable for. |
Originally Posted by alanw
I wonder if they'll still use the bird as the company mascot. What is it...an albatross?
redtailedshark ^ :D |
Originally Posted by Germanfflyer
Last night when I enquired what to do to have my miles moved to NW I was told that the request would have to be in by the beginning of May!
Since from the second half of May onward they will not process those requests any more since the new program will be available WORLDWIDE...... So be ware that the door to escape to NW will close the first week of May! :td: FYI: ALL FARES earn 100% miles with CO but SOME might only earn 50% ELITE miles. -Vincent |
Big Picture!
With all of the speculation, (mis!?)-information and just plain guesswork on this thread, it would be a perfect opportunity for FD/F+ to assign a LURKER to this forum.
In the short term, such a lurker could much more quickly and easily dispel or confirm info posted here about the proposed changes. In the long-term, such a lurker could provide the new program an effective and FREE sounding board, by fielding FT questions and concerns. The BA and Starwood forums are unquestionagly more valuable to FTers and to THOSE programs because their lurkers are accessible and informative/accurate. Open and effective communication should be a hallmark of the new program, and appointing a Fd/F+ Lurker would be a crucial first step in achieving that important goal. |
Originally Posted by Jenbel
Mute Swan Cygnus olor L.
And from Cygnific, the latest news about the new program: - beaubo (thank you for your message): USA/BKK business class, normal miles rate should be 120k business, 160k first, 40k upgrade Not known so far if web@wards will cease to exist - confirmed 25% miles accrual in E/N/V on KL; same will apply (or is this the case already?) for AF N classes (medium haul) and L (long haul) - example of miles accrual (someone knows distances in miles to check?) for a flight CDG/JFK: PE's now earn 8190 miles or 11900 in business; should go down to 7280 and 9100 - miles needed between Europe and Asia will be 80k/120k/160 in the 3 classes; upgrade 40k - Europe-Tahiti: same as to Asia - Europe/Australia and New Zeeland: 100/150/200, no upgrades possible I feel my secrets sources inside FD have run out of other bad news, but the whole lot is bad enough. We will then see what happens...... |
Originally Posted by tricopulos
- confirmed 25% miles accrual in E/N/V on KL; same will apply (or is this the case already?) for AF N classes (medium haul) and L (long haul)
No, this is not the case as today, non-domestic N fares as well as long-haul L fares accrue 100% of mileage. This is bad news, but not as bad as if AF was implementing BA's policy. N and L fares are really the lowest of the lowest fares. Hope it doesn't happen, nevertheless !! |
Originally Posted by tricopulos
- Europe/Australia and New Zeeland: 100/150/200, no upgrades possible
|
Seeking silver linings
Originally Posted by tricopulos
.
- example of miles accrual (someone knows distances in miles to check?) for a flight CDG/JFK: PE's now earn 8190 miles or 11900 in business; should go down to 7280 and 9100 - miles needed between Europe and Asia will be 80k/120k/160 in the 3 classes; upgrade 40k - Europe-Tahiti: same as to Asia - Europe/Australia and New Zeeland: 100/150/200, no upgrades possible I feel my secrets sources inside FD have run out of other bad news, but the whole lot is bad enough. We will then see what happens...... There does seem to be a bit of good news here if your Europe to Asia redemption numbers are correct and are quoted for a return flight. Right now a C redemption to Asia (or Far East as KLM calls it) runs at 150,000 miles, so if it goes down to 120,000 we come out ahead. It would mean a revaluation of already accrued miles (and would make me feel marginally bad for just having spent 150,000 miles on a AMS-SIN-AMS award). Comparing it to the accrual rules, you would need now 13 CDG-JFK segments to earn 150,000 miles. Under the alleged new rules, you'd need 14 segments for 120,000 miles, so it's not all that bad. Hopefully. It also depends on how award milage changes for other regions, of course. But 200,000 miles in F to Oz isn't all that bad considering you now need 180,000 miles in C. Hm. Let's wait and see. Edited to add: If the 40k upgrade is for a return trip, then we're much better off, since it currently costs 40k one-way. But that'd be far too good to be true of course. |
I'm just about to book a trip to the Far East, returning in V class in June. Are the new programme's rules likely to affect existing bookings or just bookings made after the date the new rules are announced? As it would mean getting only 2,688 miles as opposed to 12,098, this is of some significance!
I would argue that, once a booking is made, a contract exists that includes the provision of FD miles on the terms in force on the date the contract was made, but I suspect KL will simply ignore any such legal niceties and will be prepared to change the rules to suit themselves. |
If C class miles are reduced from x2 to x1.5 then I shall be cancelling at least 2 C class long hauls with KLM and swopping them to Star. At the moment 3 x C asia or CPT C classes nearly gets me PE. Despite the drop to 70000 I will need nearly 4 C class returns. It will just become too difficult to stay PE under this system and will make the promised lifetime PE too difficult for me to achieve.
|
120K is the current cost for a Europe-Asia return in C with F+.
The message seems to be pretty consistent: the merged program will be first and foremost based on the AF F+ program with a few changes, such as additional level, some non-earning mileage classes, etc... So among the not so nice things that are likely to appear: upgrades will be limited to full-fare or near full-fare and no soft landing from one year to the other. Boy, aren't KLMers going to be well pissed off. *A, at least in the UK, can rub their hands in glee. For all their faults and poor execution, KL had some idea of what the UK market looked like. AF haven't got a clue... |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 7:58 am. |
This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.