But we're not just talking about flights to Nairobi or Kuala Lumpur. We are also talking about short-haul itineraries, and what KLM seems to fail to grasp is that the short-haul market, especially from regional airports, has seen major changes.

Once upon a time very few UK airports outside London had any significant number of direct international flights, and people in the provinces were generally dependent on indirect services. Given the choice between transferring at a London airport or AMS a lot of people would opt for AMS.

Things have changed. Thanks to the LCCs there is now quite a choice of direct flights from UK regional airports to destinations all over Europe. Yet, despite the wider availability of direct services many of us (myself included) have continued to use indirect services via AMS, partly out of habit but mostly because of the miles. I don't have to head north to Norwich to fly to the Continent. I can just as easily head south west to Stansted - journey time is about the same. Most people who live within easy reach of NWI also live within easy reach of STN. And, what's more, NWI is about to get its own low-cost network thanks to FlyBe.

In the past I never even looked at other carriers if I could get from A to B on KLM. I've now started shopping around, and am just staggered by the amount of money I can save on European trips by NOT flying KLM. E/N fares from NWI start at around GBP 200 return even for destinations nearby. I can get to the same destinations from STN (using quality LCCs like Air Berlin and Norwegian) for less than half that. I know people in Norwich itself who have given up on KLM and are flying from STN instead.

Maybe KLM has decided it doesn't need the transfer traffic from regional airports in the UK any more - in that case: fair enough, good luck to them. But if KLM wants to keep our business they'd better make sure they don't kick us in the teeth again - the 2002 changes (with NWI-AMS going from 700 points to 500 miles) were bad enough!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

Personally I do not care about E/N fares, because my same day returns within europe are always in X/Z/C/J.


But what i simply do NOT understand is why they PUNISH passengers purchasing Long Haul Business Class by eliminating the 100% C-class bonus.

This is INSANE.

If this is true, this will make me switch to STAR.

If, indeed, we are atypical, and represent a very small percentage of the whole KLM customer base, then why are they ****ing with us?? Don't they have bigger beans to count?

It's incremental business and revenue! ... do they care whether the C bonus is 100% or not? Even if only the people posting on this thread make a change in their flying habits as a result of the new program, that probably amounts to a couple dozen full-C flights they will lose this year vs. a few thousand miles of dubious value.

<deep breath>

We don't even know if any of it's true yet. And if it is, they don't care what we think. Our time is better spent figuring out what's next.

I think you're somewhat missing the point. The reason people have continued to use KL is becuase FD has been in essence a very good FF programme for many. While other programmes have reduced miles on certain lowers fares etc people stuck to KL because they didn't do this. If they also start reducing the benefits in FD many in the UK will realise they may as well fly on OW, *A or even LCC's as Aviatrix says.

I would also caution against this often held view that people are not very 'miles savvy' just because they don't post on Flyertalk. People have got a lot wiser in recent years as to the benefits available by accruing FF miles. I know a number of KL PE's and other FF'ers who don't come near FT, but are very clued up on air travel and mileage earning. If a programme starts to lose it's value they won't hang around.

Still, nothing is official yet so it will be interesting to see what happens. It doesn't look good though.

Well, that would be a very bad approach, just like BA for discounted coach, where you get only 25% of mileage on most fares, and no tier points for status.

4) To the person above who writes that the 30% of UK FD members "take KL because of good frequent flyer program, even it involves a transfer instead of a direct flight" that is of course not true. The vast majority of KL's UK regular customers come from smaller airports like Norwich, Edinburgh, Bristol that don't have direct flights to Nairobi or Kuala Lumpur.

Just to clarify Sjoerd: 1. I didnt say this a KLM manager did. 2. My name is Simon. 3. From Manchester and indeed Birmingham we have an increasing number of direct intercontinental flights, Kuala Lumpur being one of them. 4. Im not sure that the vast majority of KLMs UK customers use Norwich, Edinburgh and Bristol: I think quite a number probably use Heathrow, Manchester, Birmingham etc.

I think we should all realize that KLM IS NO MORE! AF/KL, being one now, is the largest airline in the world. Everything is directed from Paris and they couldn't care less whether we fly KL or AF. If most passengers end up using AF metal over KL metal for whatever reason, all they have to do is paint a couple of blue Boeings white. It's as simple as that.

That being said, I too am eager for what the new program will bring and if it really is as bad as this thread promises, then indeed it is time to look out for another airline, although I feel there's not a lot of choice if you live in The Netherlands.

AF/KL are making a significant error of judgement if they see the FF programme as standing on its own & attempt to mimic what is happening with other FFPs, without thinking about the position of the FFP as part of the airline's overall product.

To make this more concrete: the growth of LCCs in Europe has posed a significant threat to KL. From here in NCL, LCCs fly to 10 or so of KL's European destinations and KL cannot hope to match them on price. So, if KL wants to retain customers, it has to offer added value to its product - and an important part of this is the FFP. If I can accumulate 6,000 FD miles on a European trip (including PE bonus), I might be tempted to fly KL if I want the miles to go towards an upgrade to the USA, for example.

But if I choose to fly on a LCC rather than KL, then that will make it less likely that I'll fly KL on intercontinental routes (no miles earned to use for upgrades, so I'll look at other airlines prices etc). The FFP can thus be an important factor in guiding customers' choices - and if AF/KL had any sense, they'd recognise what an effective tool it could be in retaining customers.

alan's right
 

AZ is looking more attractive by the day!!!
And OK+ has always been one of the best FFPs around...Shame about the limited intercontinental network...a flight to MEX and some more involved codesharing on the ICN route would make things soooo much more clear-cut!

Perhaps, but so what? The elite levels of FD are not intended for the average KLM flyer, but for the minority that flies frequently. Ideally, such levels should be designed to encourage the loyalty of those frequent flyers who have the freedom to choose which airline to fly. I do, and I suspect I am not the only one.

Johan

Well,

based on current aviation law, it is really not unimportant, how the majority of the airline is owned and operated, maybe more restrictions on ownership and traffic rights will change sometime soon, but as long as the current laws are in place, KLM has to operate their flights, to the US for example as KLM with KLM aircraft…

In addition to that, it is obvious that KLM is ruling out of AMS, together with all codeshare partners they operate more than 70 % of the slots at Schiphol and based on the fact that more than 90 % of all Biz travellers are willing to pay ( much ) more, if they can fly non-stop, KLM will get this business anyway, but that is not even high enough to make KLM profitable.
KLM was always among the airlines with the highest work output per employee and always had a high load factor for a network /legacy carrier. Based on the fact that their profit margin is around 2 % , it would scare the hell out of me, if I would only lose a single percentage of my average load and I fear that could be the result of the new FFP…

Based on the current promotions ex Germany, I think the strategy is more than obvious, KLM will fly the low yield clientel within the alliance with premium traffic ex AMS only.
I am shocked ( but certainly happy ) about their promotions so far, the Wintersterne Special is still ongoing and fares will not rise significantly for travel up to May 30 / June 15 for some destinations.

However there are dark clouds on the horizon, I have just been to the Hamburg Aviation Conference ( www.hamburg-aviation-conference.com ) a couple of weeks ago , where a consultant from the Boston Consulting Group projected that Schiphol will be downgraded to a regional hub within the next 5-10 years…

I seriously doubt that will happen, partly because of the terminal collapse at CDG and partly because you can grow faster at Schiphol than at CDG ( not to mention the convenience factor ) , but it will be interesting to see how the strategy will be in the next years…

Its amazing how much interest has been in this topic in the last 24 hrs , as it is of the most importance to all of us frequent flyers with klm , I hope to GOD that some of the KLM/af people who have any influence in the decisions made regarding the new program take on board the points made by members here as all of the above represent the most informed for us all .

If they were to talk to us , this would go some way to elieviate the worries of us ALL in the matter of the dredded merger .

We ( well I do aswell as the 9 others I travel with 200 times a year alone on klm) DO care about E/N fare issues , We Do care also about C class bonuses , We Do also care about the level of service onboard KL flights , we also do care that the airline makes enough profit as to keep viability to their operations !

Well thats my 10p's worth .

Let's all hope that all the rumors we have all seen come to nothing and the new program is a good one and not a great white elephant !

Apologies to Ms Fob-Off
 

I think I should apologise to the lady. Have just re-read her her email. It wasn't THAT bad. Just a typical case of a boiler-plate letter sent out to anybody who mentioned E/N fares in their letters. I doubt she even read mine. And if (as I suspect) they're drowning in them and Ms Fob-Off has been given the job of sending Standard Letter No 385 to anybody whose letters mention E and N fares then what is the poor lady supposed to do?

Something suddenly dawned on me when I was re-reading the email just now: FD staff seem to genuinely believe that these E and N booking classes only apply to special "Take 0ff" fares and that regular low fares still earn miles (which is also the impression they were giving us in FD News). Could this be a case of a breakdown in communication between FD and the department that loads the fares into the system? Could it be that the fares people have started putting things into E and N class ("Hey, look, we've got some new letters to play with - let's use them for something!") without actually realising that they are depriving their customers of miles?

Yep - you're exactly right. My flying patterns have changed considerably, and its a bit unlikely I'll be doing much business travel. Given the retrenchments in benefts we've already experienced (particularly the lounge access thing :mad: ), and looking at the way things are going (all fares now no longer earning miles.. bet redemptions start changing next), I've been having a look around to see where it would be best to jump ship to...in other words, what other programme will i be able to guarentee a certain level of status with the much more limited means at my disposal. Somewhat surprisingly, it looks like BA is my best option - the 25% miles is a bummer (but starting to become depressing common), but silver is not too difficult to get with some good tier point runs in the winter, and possibly some paid WT+ longhaul trips as holidays. For airports, not a lot of difference, i always preferred to fly out of MAN anyway, because i hated connecting onwards out of the other 4 much smaller airports I could use. And i can make up my mileage earning by judicious use of non-flying mileage earning which there are many more opportunities for in the UK with BA than KLM. KLM FD used to be a great programme - I used to shout about how great it was from the rooftops, but it just isn't anymore - or at least not enough to keep me a dedicated flyer with them any longer.