KLM refund

Old Apr 18, 2020, 6:45 am
  #16  
 
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I do hope you'll also cancel your AMEX. Curiously though my AMEX approved the chargeback against KLM within 5 days.
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Old Apr 18, 2020, 7:17 am
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Georgeb71
The KL flight was Bkk to Ams, Ams to Waw. KL flight from Mxp to Ams, Ams to Bkk.
With that information, the following will apply.

As KL apparently cancelled its own flight BKK-AMS, you are entitled to a reimbursement (refund) under the rebooking rights of EC 261/2004.
1. Keep copies, screenshots, and notes of everything.
2. Make a request to KL for a reimbursement / refund to KL for the full amount of the ticket. Specify that you want this refunded to your original form of payment, e.g. credit card.
3. If after 7 days, KL has not initiated a refund, file a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank) and supply:
A. e-ticket receipt.
B. cancellation notice or screen shot showing cancelled.
C. request for refund.
D. any response from KL.

Keep your communication down to only that which is irrelevant, e.g., that KL as the operating (and ticketing???) carrier, has cancelled a flight and you have elected a refund under EC 261/2004.
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Old Apr 18, 2020, 7:23 am
  #18  
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Originally Posted by siw
I had the same scenario LHR-AMS-BKK and BKK-AMS-LHR booked months ago to fly in the first week of April. KLM cancelled same of the flights. Spoke twice to Platinum Service Line (PSL) and one of those times the agent sent a refund request to KLM Cusomter Care Team. Every communication from KLM stated that they will not give a refund - as far as KLM are concerned consumer laws do not exist. I'm a UK citizen and our Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has a series of webpages about what airlines should be doing when they cancel flights. If KLM do not want to release a refund there is nothing you can do about getting the money from them, the law does not apply anymore now that it is not in the airlines favour.

I collected all the cancellation emails, e-ticket, written summary of phone calls etc. and made an AMEX UK dispute. After about 3 weeks still nothing back. Gave up as I expect to lose not matter what evidence I supply, as remember consumer laws do not apply anymore and KLM can do what they like. Asked for a voucher as something is better than nothing. I am 99.999999999% certain that if I tried to use the voucher for the same routing, same cabin and at the same dates (although 1 year later) that the ticket price will be alot more expensive. So I can only wait for 12 months to convert the voucher back into a refund on my credit card - beware that you have to get KLM to do that, they will not do that automatically after 12 months.

Suffice to say. I will not be booking with KLM again unless I have not other option.
You are incorrect.

1. "Consumer" laws have not been suspended. In this case, EC 261/2004 most certainly applies as KL is an EU carrier. The EC recently issued guidance making it clear that it certainly does apply and your experience is odd as there are many reports here of people obtaining chargeback credits through Amex UK in a few days.

2. Before accepting the voucher, which has likely cut off your ability to obtain a refund, I would have called Amex and asked for the status rather than have simply given up because I heard nothing.

3. For those starting out anew, keep your submission short and only include the few relevant materials which establish your entitlement:
A. E-ticket receipt.
B. Cancellation notice from the carrier.
C. Passenger request for refund.
D/ Denial by carrier (or note that no communication has been received)

Make a specific request under EC 261/2004 for a reimbursement / refund.

Most are seeing the charge suspended and then the credit issued.

As you are located in the UK, you also have access to MCOL and an easy small claims procedure.
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Old Apr 18, 2020, 9:10 am
  #19  
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Unfortnately, text does not convey exasperation and a state of futility from having to deal with a bunch of airlines for refunds for cancalled flights. I was saying that no matter how much I told KLM on the phone about EU rules about refunds for cancalled flights they were having none of it - the only words they could hear was them telling me "voucher" and "rebooking". So they were deaf to any laws.

I will stop using my AMEX Preferred Rewards Gold Card. It's practically useless. I was once put through to someone in the Disputes Dept. and she was telling me not to raise a dispute and let the airline sort out a refund. She was not going to help when told KL refuse to refund anyone.
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Old Apr 18, 2020, 12:44 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by Bogwoppit
Glad you can afford to subsidize the airline industry. But my broke student no longer has her paid summer internship, has to pay rent both here and in Glasgow where she was studying, and therefore needs her $1200 returned. Pretty certain she will not be able to afford to fly for a long time regardless.

Pays not to judge why people ask for refunds.
Everyone has an excuse to ask for a refund. But that will be the end of the airlines if everyone finds an excuse to ask for one.

If it is your student help her with cash. The voucher will be refunded when not used within the year. And then she can pay you back.

I did not judge.

I just said that if everyone asks for a refund.. more airlines will go bust then already more then likely.

Which will lead to very high ticket prices in the future.
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Last edited by Meneer Guggenheimer; Apr 18, 2020 at 1:27 pm
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Old Apr 18, 2020, 1:26 pm
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by siw
I will stop using my AMEX Preferred Rewards Gold Card. It's practically useless. I was once put through to someone in the Disputes Dept. and she was telling me not to raise a dispute and let the airline sort out a refund. She was not going to help when told KL refuse to refund anyone.
Sounds like you got a bad agent there. I've had no problem getting disputes raised (and money back) on my Amex Preferred Rewards Gold Card after finding it impossible to contact Lufthansa and Brussels Airlines for refunds on cancelled flights. It's probably better to raise the dispute online though (I've found the money comes back quicker than it does on phoned-in disputes).
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Old Apr 18, 2020, 2:33 pm
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Meneer Guggenheimer
Everyone has an excuse to ask for a refund.
Nobody has or needs an excuse to ask for a refund.

It is a legal right, and for the airline a legal obligation. Period. Full stop.

As far as KL/AF is concerned, there's no way the French and Dutch governments will ever let them sink, so those owed money should just go ahead and sue them if a chargeback doesn't work for some reason.

Johan
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Old Apr 18, 2020, 4:21 pm
  #23  
 
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Originally Posted by johan rebel
Nobody has or needs an excuse to ask for a refund.

It is a legal right, and for the airline a legal obligation. Period. Full stop.

As far as KL/AF is concerned, there's no way the French and Dutch governments will ever let them sink, so those owed money should just go ahead and sue them if a chargeback doesn't work for some reason.

Johan
I do not say it is not legal.

The fact the voucher is backed by governments is a reason not to do a ‘bankrun’. If you can use the voucher in the future you should opt for that now.

If you request a refund KL should honor that. But if everyone does that... they will probably collapse.
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Old Apr 18, 2020, 6:22 pm
  #24  
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I feel it is not my duty to save the airlines with my hard earned money. What about the Mom and Pop groceries, or a furniture store or any other business? Why shouldn’t we save them also? If you purchased a certain piece of furniture, paid, and then were told they don’t have it, and won’t have it for another year, do you tell them to hold onto the money? I feel I wouldn’t be as upset if I didn’t purchase business class tickets for my wife and I for this once in a lifetime trip. Customer care should seriously change their name. The Dutch infrastructure minister, Cora van Nieuwenhuizen, says that if the airlines had to give the people their money back, they would be in worse shape (or words to that effect). I still feel that it is not my duty to save the airlines, rather the duty of the government’s if they so choose.
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Old Apr 19, 2020, 1:47 am
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by Georgeb71
I feel it is not my duty to save the airlines with my hard earned money. What about the Mom and Pop groceries, or a furniture store or any other business? Why shouldn’t we save them also?
We should and that is the reason the Dutch government pays a lot of salaries when the employer had to reduce the workforce.
So people still have money to keep the economy going "as usual".
They asked for instance to keep paying for the fitness and childcare even if those are closed and you can't use the service.
There are vouchers you can buy from restaurants, which are now closed to trade for a metal when they can open again.

You might not agree with this policy, but it does fit with the airline voucher idea and shows they are not an exception in this.
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Old Apr 19, 2020, 1:57 am
  #26  
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Another question about this is, if you purchased your KLM ticket in the U.S. , you are able to get a refund! Sound fair?
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Old Apr 19, 2020, 2:05 am
  #27  
 
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Originally Posted by EricVdb
They asked for instance to keep paying for the fitness and childcare even if those are closed and you can't use the service.
While at the same time the government is giving them money too. I don’t understand why fitness centers and childcare should paid by me twice (through my direct contribution and through the taxes I pay).
There are vouchers you can buy from restaurants, which are now closed to trade for a metal when they can open again.
That is totally different as you can choose to buy a voucher to support your local business or not. Airlines however already have your money and refuse to give it back to you, even though they are legally required to do so if you choose to get it back.

My gripe with the whole situation is the attitude of KLM as evidenced by the spokesperson quoted in https://www.upinthesky.nl/2020/04/15...oronavoucher/:

KLM erkent dat het uitkeren van een voucher in plaats van cash in strijd is met de Europese regelgeving. “Deze handelingswijze is echter niet in lijn met Verordening (EG) Nr. 261/2004”, zegt de maatschappij tegenover Up. “Inmiddels zijn de overheden van 9 Europese landen – waaronder Nederland – in gesprek met de Europese Commissie om toe te staan een beperkte termijn niet te handhaven. KLM voldoet aan alle genoemde voorwaarden om af te zien van handhaving.


Translation: “KLM recognize vouchers instead of cash are in violation EU regulations, but because governments in 9 countries (including the Netherlands) are talking to the EU commission to suspend pursuing airlines for a limited time, and KLM meets all requirements not to be pursued. “

This is the fault of the Dutch government for instructing the local body, ILT, not to enforce EU rules.

De maatschappij blijft bij het standpunt de voucher een eerlijke oplossing te vinden. De afgelopen weken zijn er talloze vluchten geannuleerd vanwege de uitbraak van het coronavirus. Binnen de uitzonderlijke omstandigheden vindt KLM dan ook dat de voucher een redelijk evenwicht vormt tussen ‘de bescherming van de rechten van passagiers en de realiteit waarin alle luchtvaartmaatschappijen nu moeten opereren.’

“Ons doel is niet om onze passagiers hun rechten te ontnemen. Wanneer vluchten echter moeten worden geannuleerd vanwege de wereldwijde mondiale sluitingen van de grenzen en beperkingen op het vrije verkeer waardoor passagiers hun vertrekluchthavens niet kunnen bereiken, stelt de uitgifte van deze vouchers ons in staat passagiers meer flexibiliteit en keuze te bieden tijdens een periode van onzekerheid
Translation: KLM maintains that the vouchers are an “honest” solution. They find that a voucher is a reasonable balance between the protection of passenger rights and the reality that all airlines have to operate within. Their goal is not to deprive people of their rights, but issuing vouchers gives passengers more flexibility and choice in this period of uncertainty.

I don’t know about KLM, but cash gives me a lot more flexibility and choice to buy whatever I want than a voucher from KLM that may or may not turn into cash in a year’s time.

For me this leaves a huge dent in my opinion of KLM that I’ve built over the last 10 years or so. I already got my money back via a chargeback via AMEX, but in future you can bet that I’ll pursue any EU261 claim to the fullest extent when in the past I would have perhaps been more lenient, and of course I will much more often consider other options than KLM. If they think they can f us, I will do my part to f them back. Pardon my Dutch.
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Old Apr 19, 2020, 4:25 am
  #28  
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Let the ticket prices rise. How much of a check did you send to KLM to help them out in these tough times?
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Old Apr 19, 2020, 11:15 am
  #29  
 
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I really wonder if all y'all think getting your cash refund from a bankrupted company would be easier than dealing with a voucher.

cause maybe you don't get it, but they don't issue vouchers just so they can mess with their customers. They sort of issue vouchers so they can keep existing...
"oh, but the governments would just bail them out". Guess what. Government can just as well decide to let KLM fail, they've had a 100 year run. And in the summer there would be Rijksluchtvaartsmaatschapij with their iconing orange airplanes instead.
Your claims against KLM? Well sure, they are court accepted. You can expect your 1 euro per 1000 euro claim as soon as the airlines collection of huisjes is auctioned off.
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Old Apr 19, 2020, 12:19 pm
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Georgeb71
Let the ticket prices rise.
Right now KL (and other airlines) are selling tickets at steep discounts, including J class.

Johan
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