Vendome and Dieter M�ller are very formal. Over all their is a change over the last years, since more and more chefs are TV-Stars. For example we had dinner at the Lorenz Adlon, an two star restaurant at the Adlon Hotel Berlin. Really good food!

Beside us sat one American Couple (over 70 I guess), who took pictures all the time. Another German couple had some special event and also took pictures. At the end they asked, if they could took the menu home. They were so happy, when the chef signed it. I feeled nearly sorry, that we had no special occasion and only wanted a good dinner

To compare American fine dining and German fine dining it�s really a difference. First in the US they always have to tell you their dress code. Are people really so dependent, that they don�t know what to wear? Only know it from discos in Germany, wich I didn�t visit.

OK, that poast was off topic, sorry.

P.S. We have Spargelzeit (white asparagus) at the moment - guess what we mostly eat

People in the US aren't "dependent". Many just tend to dress like slobs. They don't understand that although "high fashion" jeans and a "designer tee shirt" and a leather jacket can look really good on a tall thin young woman (especially if she's wearing "killer" shoes with high heels) - they make someone of my age and stature look like a refugee from a Hell's Angels outing. I carry a small back pack (one of the few things I bought in Tokyo during my first trip - it's sleek and I love it) when I'm out and about in a big city like Tokyo during warm weather. It contains a pair of light-weight slacks and some nice shoes that I can change into if we wind up in a restaurant that is "business casual".

For what it's worth - I save menus from a lot of my meals too. So - 10 or 20 years later - I can remember all the courses in a meal (when it comes to the truly memorable meals - well I often remember those without any prompts at all - especially if they're 4 or 5 course meals and not 20 course meals ).

I wish I was in Germany for spargelzeit now . My husband could use some German beer too! BTW - can anyone recommend any particular brands of Japanese beer my husband can try (he loves beers - especially hoppy ones). Robyn

L'Osier had fantastic bread (and butter), they had something like 10 kinds on a tray. The dough was brought in from France and baked in the on-site ovens at Maison Kayser. Lionel Lavernhe was very proud of this bread.

Many other restaurants have excellent breads, but L'Osier memorably stood out. The Robuchon group in Tokyo has their own bakery (they even sell it to the public at stores in Roppongi Hills and Brick Square) so their bread is also notably good.

Yup - that's because people here who seem to have been to Japan a million times don't seem to be able to name a single traditional Japanese or Kaiseki restaurant that he or she likes. All most people seem to be able to do for the most part (not all the time - but a lot of the time) is diss what other people have written elsewhere - or get into fights about whether it makes sense to have Chinese food in Tokyo.

Being the OP - I was honestly looking for suggestions about Japanese restaurants - all flavors. From people who had dined in those places. Not only sushi (which seems to be most peoples' favorite but it's not mine) - or the other popular tourist destination categories of restaurants.

I know that Michelin is not necessarily on target when it comes to dining in countries like Japan. Still - it had 15 3 star open restaurants in its 2012 English edition (Araki has closed). And about 50 2 stars. And they can't all be bad (and many are probably quite good).

At this point - I'd rather go through the blogs of 20 or 30 something year olds who are discovering Japanese food and working their way through the restaurants there than listen to the fights here. Because - you know what - I used to be 20 or 30 - and I was in their shoes once (albeit not in Japan and before the internet existed). There are few things that are quite as much fun as discovering new cuisines and learning about them. I started learning when I was in my 20's (and had my first 2 nickels to rub together) - and hope I will never stop learning.

In all honesty - has no one here ever been to any of the Michelin 3 stars in Tokyo except for Ryugin - Jiro - and Saito? If any of the others has been mentioned - I've forgotten (it's a long thread). And what about the 2 stars? Robyn

No. I just like the neat way the single word encapsulates the mindlessness of check-list gourmets - on a mission to undiscerningly dine where many have been before.

You're mistaken. It's not fighting. It just looks like fighting. Kind of like kendo. We're merely engaging in the stimulating and relaxing sport of slashing the intellectually feeble arguments of other posters while at the same time trying to convince everyone through the use of clever rhetorical jabs that are own opinions are actually immutable facts.

Did you think we would actually spend time on this thread in order just to show a Japanese culinary neophyte the error of her ways. Be patient grasshopper; some morsels of grain may fall your way.

You do know that two of the Tokyo resaurants I mentioned in my reply to your original post are traditional kaiseki restaurants, as are the two others I recommended for Kyoto, right? I gave you some of my favorites, but I know many more if you would like further recommendations.

I really don't care about Michelin ratings in Japan, and neither do most of the Japanese chefs I speak with - including some whose restaurants have stars. I rely on word of mouth, and introductions from Japanese friends and from the chefs of the restaurants I frequent to find other restaurants.

Some restaurants with no stars (or fewer stars) are better than restaurants that have stars (or more stars). I think it is a mistake to focus on the number of stars any of these restaurants have, especially if one is relatively inexperienced with Japanese cuisine. People with more experience often care the least about Michelin stars.

If at all possible I would strongly recommend visiting restaurants for dinner instead of lunch in order to have the best experience. The atmosphere is different and restaurants try harder at dinner. Many fine Japanese restaurants do not serve lunch.

Btw, I am in the age group you describe.

Now I have only been here for 15 years (on FT that is) which is longer than all the mods I believe, save maybe a few, and I can assure you the "Query-Snarky reply made in jest-frustration-conversation deterioration" pattern has been repeated since day 1.

'Tis the nature of the beast. Deal with it or fold and leave the table. Plain and simple. I read more than I post as I no longer like answering the same questions ad infinitum. I find the most enjoyment in the people I have met and the periodic mental gymnastics in which we can engage here.

Now 5khours and I may have appeared to be verbally sparring, and that may be an apt description, but at the end of the day he took the high road and earned everyone's respect I think. Certainly mine. And I know for a fact we are miles apart on opinion. The beauty of it is the forum, hearkening back to ancient times where people spoke, people opined, and if it interested you, you would listen and maybe join from time to time is that we can do exactly that without risk but very likely reward.

The fact is to ask a group of unknown people on a faceless internet forum a serious question expecting only seriousness and absolute knowledge in response is a bit of a leap of faith.

I would suggest a perusal of the threads here point you, at least with specific respect to food, to other food sites to find the answers to the more specific questions you pose.

I would suggest - in all respect - that one reason FT has survived as long as it has is that most people here do not share your POV in terms of answering the same questions again and again (and perhaps even again). Or covering the same ground as it changes in very small ways (e.g., changes in FF programs).

I can't recall when I first started on serious food chat boards. It is at least 10 years - but I can't remember the exact starting point. At first there was one (maybe 2). And then X fought with Y - and the boards split. And then X fought with A and Y fought with B - and the boards split again. Etc. So - as of today - you basically have only a ghost of what existed when it came to talking about food 10+ years ago. And I am pretty much not an active participant in the places that still exist.

Anyway - if you're telling me there are better places to learn about food on the internet than FT - I agree with you. Especially after this thread. But chat boards aren't a good resource today IMO (those that are still kind of active are pretty lame IMO). And - when I ask for someone's opinion about a restaurant on the internet - it's not like I'm asking them how best to deal with a serious medical problem I have (which I'd never do). It's only a restaurant decision after all - not a matter of life or death or anything close to it. Pretty much like choosing a hotel (and FT is excellent when it comes to hotel stuff IMO)

Perhaps most of you are business travelers. Traveling the same paths on the same budgets in the same places over and over again. I can relate to that - I used to travel on business too. But some of us are leisure travelers - and have a lot more latitude when it comes to choices. We don't have to be content with doing the same thing over and over and over again - and taking out our frustrations at doing so by engaging in intellectual sparring with strangers. We're interested in exploring new things.

Like I've said - I have always been willing to help people here who want to explore best I can. I was once young - and knew nothing. And had people who helped me to learn about traveling and dining. I've learned some over the years (certainly not everything) - and feel I owe it to my mentors to pass on what I've learned from them - and what I've learned on my own and from others. It is too bad that you don't share my point of view. "See one - do one - teach one." Robyn

Not a business traveler, I am in fact a resident of Japan for the past 23 years. and of the planet for much longer than that. Nice guess though.

You opine about "most" not sharing my POV about answering the same questions again and again, but you are , simply put, wrong. The lack of experience here shows in comments such as that, but I smile and know you will hopefully gain more awareness in time. We all do eventually.

I would say it is hardly a pity I do not share your point of view of "See one - do one - teach one." In fact I am not entirely sure what is meant by that, but in any case as you know me only from here on FT I would suggest you reserve judgment and focus on your quest for food information.

Wishing you the best of luck with that, it appears you will indeed need it.

Peace.

<redacted>

With all due respect, the grasshopper moniker was intended entirely in humor so I apologize if you were offended. That was entirely contrary to its intention.

That said, I and others have gone to some effort to write (IMHO) very thoughtful and insightful posts in this and your other current thread which while perhaps not directly responsive to your questions were intended to help you better enjoy your culinary excursion to Japan.

Yes, and the OP has received quite a few excellent recommendations.

Recommendations for a 'special occasion' restaurant? I'm traveling to Tokyo for the first time in July as part of my 40th birthday RTW, and will be in town for my actual birthday. I have little experience/knowledge of Japanese cuisine and its varieties, but am a relatively adventurous eater and am open to new experiences. I'd like something not overly touristy, but comfortable for non-Japanese speakers. I know 'traditional', 'authentic', and 'typical' can be heavily loaded terms, but a cultural as well as high-quality/interesting food experience would be nice. Thanks in advance.

The beginning of July is still fire fly season.
Since this is a special occasion, so long as you are prepared to put in an hour of travel time to and from Shinjuku to get there (the journey itself is inexpensive), it would be very hard to beat the Ukai Toriyama at the foot of Mt Takao. You should aim to be there for dusk as fireflies are released into the grounds during the first half of July. Reservation very much advised.
http://www.ukai.co.jp/english/toriyama/

You will not go wrong with anything at Wadakura at the Palace hotel, and it will be suitable for a special occasion. Good hotel restaurants are very approachable and a good way to get an introduction to Japanese cuisine. You can have kaiseki, or eat at the excellent sushi, teppanyaki, or tempura counters.