46long

I gotta say, I am 100% with karenkay on this and dp I have enjoyed your posts since joining 2 years ago. You have literally made my travel life better with your various insights into airlines and hotels. However, the flaw in your logic is that the issue doesn't lie in the logic, it lies in the ethics of the issue. This time, it IS differnet, because the hotel stepped up to the plate and honored the mistake that was made. I, too, now feel embarrased for the 1st time in 2 years since I started getting in on these deals or mistakes. What Dennis is doing is simply wrong...period. Debate all you want but somewhere in your stomach you can feel that too. Derpelikan was the last member I thought would defend his behavior. Incidentally, I will be in the hotel at the same time as both Karenkay and Dennis, and I was in Bangkok regardless of the deal. KarenKay PM me if you want to have a drink in the Prez suite. Dennis, don't bother, I'm assuming you'll be the guy in the lounge piling the single-plated hors d'oeuvres onto your plate....ergo too busy for such pleasantries,
Cheers,
46

jpdx

I've kept quiet on this thread so far -- for a variety of reasons. First, I have done well on many deals, and I wasn't sure if I was morally qualified to speak on these issues. For the record, I do think that there is a great difference between booking one trip and booking four months. Second, and most importantly, I am not sure what the "FT spirit" is. Many posts in this thread suggest: modesty, while others suggest: greed. I will instead go with the working assumption that it's "information sharing."

I don't want to argue the morality of all this, as we've had this discussion over and over again. But let's look at practical aspects. The repeated statements that there is really no damage to the hotels, or that these bookings are actually advantageous (the "lower administrative costs due to only one check-out per 4 months" argumentation is priceless, derpelikan) are laughable. Of course all mistake bookings do damage to the hotel's, or online TA's, bottom line.

The results are obvious: TAs and hotels are less likely to honor deals, and more likely to monitor FT to pull deals quickly. Noticed that Travelocity has been pulling even minor deals within less than an hour lately?

These developments -deals posted to FT disappearing quickly, and a strong negative correlation between number of bookings made and likelihood of having the deal honored- have not gone unnoticed. And this is where the FT spirit comes in. Many deals just don't get shared with the general public anymore. I mean, really, what good is it to find a deal only to have it ruined by people's greed? I wish Michele Peluso would come back here to share with us the number of nights booked during Travelocity's Japan hotel mistake. Probably tens of thousands of nights. For every Dennis and Hans who publicly admits to booking four months there are probably five FTers and 10 lurkers who have done the same.

The result for FT: Yes, greed is destroying the FT spirit (if, indeed, the FT spirit equates to information sharing), because deals remain under the table. You would have to be crazy to share a hotel deal with everyone out there just to watch it fall apart, when you could have shared it with 50 friends and seen it succeed. (To be fair, the destructive element is the greed of everyone involved -- the multiple bookers and those not willing to share). It's all a very simple numbers game. It's not a coincidence that the greatest deals occurred before FT became "famous." Accept that the Conrad thing was an exception, and prepare to see most exceptional deals fail (sooner or later, this will spill over to airfare; we almost had AZ there).

Finally, I don't see anything we can do to "save" the "FT spirit." If anything, it's in the hands of hotels/online TAs. I believe Conrad made a big mistake in honoring the BKK deal in its entirety. The right thing to do is to honor one to three bookings of three nights or less, or offer 50% off. Check the Travelocity Japan thread: They made a very exciting offer: get your first night free. For anyone who booked two nights only, or a road (well, JR) trip with short stays at 4 different hotels, this would have been a great offer. But while everybody was complaining about the lousy $100 coupon Travelocity gave out, we didn't get a single report of anyone staying at what effectively could have been 50% off at some very neat hotels. Go figure!

clusters78

Flyertalk over the past few years, I feel, has evolved to be like a fatwallet.com for airline and hotel deals. As most of us well know the fatwallet-ers proudly speak of the "fatwallet effect" when someone posts a good deal/freebie, then thousands and thousands of folks descend like vultures upon the deal until it is soon taken down by the offerer. The mantra seems to be: If there's a golden goose somewhere, rush to kill it: You snooze, you lose, and screw those who want to keep the goose alive to keep on getting the golden eggs.

I strongly disagree with any claims that honoring those deals is supposedly in the best interests of the airline/hotel/portal. Just look at what happened with the Madrid/Air Europa deal, and then how many flyertalkers reacted with the Hilton Osaka deal. Talk about a case of "what have you done for me lately". What incentive is there for a travelocity to keep honoring deals as they did with Fiji and Madrid for flyertalkers anymore, if they can't expect any reciprocation from us? There's no scintilla of loyalty or benefit of the doubt given to them; and I have to say it wouldn't surprise me if most of those defending the 4-month booker in this case or attacked travelocity over the japan hilton deal, are the same ones who would gladly accept Travelocity's offer to Fiji/Madrid and then next time they need a fare, look it up on travelocity then go to the airline's own portal to book to save the $5 + get 1000 mile booking bonus.

I'm shocked Conrad honored this deal. Thumbs way up to them, since the way flyertalk (and part of it is fatwallet/slickdeals, as any good deals posted here is rapidly relayed by lurkers to forums there) operates nowadays I think there's limited--if any--goodwill benefit to them for doing this. I doubt anyone can _honestly_ tell me that that for most of the Conrad bookers: the next times they need a hotel, and they see A) a Conrad or B) another same-class hotel for $15/night cheaper or C) some similar hotel for the same price but they have higher status with, they would actually pick (A) out of goodwill for Conrad from having benefited from this deal.

maclover

I don't want to elaborate on the "moral" or "ethic" matter, since evry person has its own as an individual.
But as a community we should have our own "common sense".

The thing that is really annoying to me is that lots of posts on FT lately are just about complains and stuff like that.
"The fire alarm went on on mindnight, how many points should I ask for as compensation?"
"I met a F/A in the hotel elevator while on the way to the airport. She was rude to me: worth complaining?"
"I measured the seat pitch, and it was just 78 rather than 79,5: what I'm entitled to?"

Would you still think this is a frequent traveller community? Or just a place where to blame, complain and try to be "the smart one"?

maclover

shukris

The term "FT spirit" seems to me to be relative to the viewpoint of whoever is on FT. Please let me know if you have a precise definition that I am unaware of.

My 2c is that taking advantage of a mistake a little or a lot is still taking advantage. Sorry if you disagree.

jerry crump

I think flyertalk is basically a free market of idea sharing. The moderators generally do not interfere so you get very close to a pure free market of ideas. A purely free market is fair to everyone including the big corporations that don't desire to loose millions on their mistakes. It could be said that the greedy ones are those that want an unfair advantage in relation to the corporations and obsessive compulsive types. Really if you want 2 nights of an unfair deal for yourself to the exclusion of millions of others, hidden from the corporations and definitely not shared with the obsessive folks then isn't that basically the definition of greed which is:

excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves

To say you deserve to take part in a mistake but it is being screwed up by the free sharing of information seems like an excessive desire.

By the way I really enjoyed my $9 nights in DC and $0 fares to Acapulco this year.

I have a problem with a 4 month booking but in a free market those kinds of things work them selves out. I think a fair statement is that the extremely greedy folks are preventing us just a little greedy folks from getting what we want.

mesadler

That's not why I've been here since well before July.

I did take advantage of some deals, but without another pricing error, I'd still be here.

shukris

I'd still be here too. My point was that deals are being posted constantly and hence, if people are upset about others taking advantage of them, why are they on here? That was what I don't understand.

Sorry if people are upset by my stance.

mario33

Finally, someone who is brave enough to make this statement ^

I was expecting them to honour 1 booking for a maximum of 7 nights, which is probably how most guests would have booked had there been no mistake on the rate. 99.99% of guests do not stay beyond 7 nights in a hotel, and 99.99% of guests do not have more than one booking at the same hotel at any one time.

karenkay

as i think more about this, it seems to me that part of the 'ft spirit' should be about being considerate to the group. that means we share information and it also means that we keep the group in mind in our use of that information.

someone who takes advantage of one of those deals to excess shows a lack of consideration for the other members on flyertalk, as his abuse of the information makes it less likely any of us will benefit from it, and also less likely other members will share this info in the future.

shukris, i note the bulk of your posts are in this forum and mileage run. might want to check out the rest of flyertalk.

tcook052

There is a big difference between 'taking advantage' of a misprice, which almost all of us have done, and abusing the system with irresponsible actions such as booking months at a time.

That I can agree with, though I still contend that how they "work themselves out", such as not honoring mistakes at all, will not make either party happy.

AX9465

there is a lot of discussion on previous post whether it is justified or not to get an advantage from hotel/airline mistake.
Thing overlooked, IMO, is that hotels and airlines act as if they want this kind of behavior exibited by their guest.
just look at majority of terms and conditions... they all say that customer is nobody, and the hotel or airline is the king... they are full with the language which will make any honest person cringe... "only offered", "not guaranteed", "where available", "capacity controlled", "non-refundable", "at your own risk", "right to cancel/change this terms and conditions at any time" - worst of it being "at our sole discretion".
No wonder, and I understand it completely, people want to screw them to get even - I would. If ever in my life I were sold a ticket where fare rules were 100% say of what I can not do and 0% of what I can - and then I see same airline sell ticket for $1 - I will buy it - just to get even.
flyertalk has nothing to do with it - it's just an information channel. until relations between hotel/airline and the customer will be a game into one gates only people will do thing they do now. and contrary to all pundits, OP included (sorry) it IS justified.
AX

derpelikan

thanks for your post.

well first, i dont like all people flaming one person. if he didnt post it here, than nobody would have know about it, and we would only be talking about how great the hotel is.

the point is not that there were 1 or two persons who booked a long period. the two persons are less damage to the hotel, than all the persons who did book some thousand rooms.

we are talking about 1000 + reservations. is anybody realizing this number?
Amex alone did book over 1500 nights + ....

let not reduce the discussion to the one person who booked some month.
well , we booked it all, and in total we are giving the hotel a big damage.
we have to be realistic, it might be 1-2 reservations per persons, but these add up to 1000 + reservations.

the internet made it possible to get all information, discussions etc. but through the number of members on FT etc. in the future these kinds of deals will just not be honored.

i love FT for the information i am getting here, the friends i have found , and i will stay here even if i wont find any great cheap deals


anyway, the CONRAD Bangkok did a great JOB. it was unbelievable that they did honore the entire deal. i am happy , as we were planning to go to bKK anyway.

for my part, i can only ask you all who are going to the hotel, spent money , spent money, spent money!!!

and if you dont have the money to spent in the hotel, please cancel your reservation, a guest who can not spent some hundred USD on the stay (for a 3 night stay) should not go... this is my opinion, and some may disagree, but the hotels deserves more than some bargain hunters, who checkout with a 60usd bill.

the hotel is blocking at least 2 deluxe suites for over 6 month.

if the hotel did only honor 2 bookings for one person, and with a limited length of stay, this would have been acceptable for anybody i think.


and well regarding to the topic of this thread, its not multiple bookings which are destroying everything, it is the number of users who are able to book this things.

but, well we are all trying to get the best out of FT, everybody has its own reasons to be here but let try to have a nice modest discussion.


dp

DeirdreTours

I think a fair statement is that the extremely greedy folks are preventing us just a little greedy folks from getting what we want

I think this is exactly right-- What blows my mind is how any rational person can argue that booking 1 month or 1 year is grossly unethical but booking a day or a week is perfectly fine. If the long booking is stealing, than the short bookings is just stealing less. And if it isn't--than their isn't an ethical problem.

AX9465

FT is the place to share ideas and gain knowledge.. in this sense it would be interesting to find out what other people were entitled to if their seat pitch was 1,5 inches less than stated... if you think that feel being entitled for anything so trivial annoying - I urge you to reconcider. Just remind yourself what you are entitled to in case you arrive exactly one minute after check-in deadline.
AX