Dual nationality - BNO and HKID
Nov 17, 2017, 11:12 pm
#91
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Wrong. China never said Gui Minhai was a Chinese national. Only Lee Bo was "foremost a Chinese national" because Lee obtained British citizenship through the "unrecognized" scheme. Gui was simply grabbed from Thailand as a Swede. (Of course the "official" TV confession has him voluntarily returned to settle the criminal case while he was Chinese.)
What difference does it make whether China officially called Gui Minhai a Chinese national or not? The fact is China will kidnap you from another country, detain you with no access to counsel, coerce a confession and not care at all about whatever protection you claim to have from your consulate. A foreign citizenship and renouncing your Chinese nationality does absolutely nothing for you when you're within Chinese (and their friendly neighbor's) borders. What good did Gui Minhai's foreign nationality do? Absolutely nothing.
Nov 17, 2017, 11:18 pm
#92
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Once again, purely academic differences.
What difference does it make whether China officially called Gui Minhai a Chinese national or not? The fact is China will kidnap you from another country, detain you with no access to counsel, coerce a confession and not care at all about whatever protection you claim to have from your consulate. A foreign citizenship and renouncing your Chinese nationality does absolutely nothing for you when you're within Chinese (and their friendly neighbor's) borders. What good did Gui Minhai's foreign nationality do? Absolutely nothing.
What difference does it make whether China officially called Gui Minhai a Chinese national or not? The fact is China will kidnap you from another country, detain you with no access to counsel, coerce a confession and not care at all about whatever protection you claim to have from your consulate. A foreign citizenship and renouncing your Chinese nationality does absolutely nothing for you when you're within Chinese (and their friendly neighbor's) borders. What good did Gui Minhai's foreign nationality do? Absolutely nothing.
Nov 18, 2017, 3:55 pm
#93
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Jan 30, 2018, 8:15 pm
#94
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Hello, wonder if anyone has update on BNO renewal...
I have great difficulties with renewing my BNO after it expired 16 years ago. This is the latest reply from the BNO Liverpool office after about a dozen email bouncing back and forth:
***
Thank you for your reply. If you wish to use the name C--- B--- <Surname> in your new BNO passport, you need to change the name shown on your New Zealand passport to reflect the same name order. Or we can issue a passport in the name of B--- C--- <Surname> if you provide evidence showing that you have changed the name shown on your Hong Kong ID card to match the name. Applicant is eligible to align his/her name on all of the official documents and uses only one name (in the same order) for all purposes according to our policy and procedures.
***
Why a renewal application is made so complicated? My "middle name" appeared before my "first name" on my expired BNO so I just want to keep it simple and leave it "as is". I enter HK on a New Zealand passport as a foreign visitor so I don't use an HKID. Our names are always arranged like this in HK with their "standard order", very simply placing "middle name" before "first name". I'm sure this is the order as appear on at least 99% of BNO holders'.
From this email they are asking me to do a formal name change, which I believe is unreasonable.
It seems that they are making the BNO renewal process very difficult for those who left HK prior to the change of sovereignty. Renewal is supposed to be a very straight forward process but this is clearly not the case for me. Does anyone have similar issues with recent BNO renewal?
I have great difficulties with renewing my BNO after it expired 16 years ago. This is the latest reply from the BNO Liverpool office after about a dozen email bouncing back and forth:
***
Thank you for your reply. If you wish to use the name C--- B--- <Surname> in your new BNO passport, you need to change the name shown on your New Zealand passport to reflect the same name order. Or we can issue a passport in the name of B--- C--- <Surname> if you provide evidence showing that you have changed the name shown on your Hong Kong ID card to match the name. Applicant is eligible to align his/her name on all of the official documents and uses only one name (in the same order) for all purposes according to our policy and procedures.
***
Why a renewal application is made so complicated? My "middle name" appeared before my "first name" on my expired BNO so I just want to keep it simple and leave it "as is". I enter HK on a New Zealand passport as a foreign visitor so I don't use an HKID. Our names are always arranged like this in HK with their "standard order", very simply placing "middle name" before "first name". I'm sure this is the order as appear on at least 99% of BNO holders'.
From this email they are asking me to do a formal name change, which I believe is unreasonable.
It seems that they are making the BNO renewal process very difficult for those who left HK prior to the change of sovereignty. Renewal is supposed to be a very straight forward process but this is clearly not the case for me. Does anyone have similar issues with recent BNO renewal?
Jan 30, 2018, 8:25 pm
#95
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It seems that they are making the BNO renewal process very difficult for those who left HK prior to the change of sovereignty. Renewal is supposed to be a very straight forward process but this is clearly not the case for me. Does anyone have similar issues with recent BNO renewal?
Jan 30, 2018, 10:10 pm
#96
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You made this complicated. I am 100% confident that if you have never touched your name in any way, HMPO will never say something like this.
Actually no, the new process is easier. Instead of original HKID, HMPO simply asks for a color copy only.
Actually no, the new process is easier. Instead of original HKID, HMPO simply asks for a color copy only.
Jan 30, 2018, 10:29 pm
#97
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I have great difficulties with renewing my BNO after it expired 16 years ago. This is the latest reply from the BNO Liverpool office after about a dozen email bouncing back and forth:
***
Thank you for your reply. If you wish to use the name C--- B--- <Surname> in your new BNO passport, you need to change the name shown on your New Zealand passport to reflect the same name order. Or we can issue a passport in the name of B--- C--- <Surname> if you provide evidence showing that you have changed the name shown on your Hong Kong ID card to match the name. Applicant is eligible to align his/her name on all of the official documents and uses only one name (in the same order) for all purposes according to our policy and procedures.
***
***
Thank you for your reply. If you wish to use the name C--- B--- <Surname> in your new BNO passport, you need to change the name shown on your New Zealand passport to reflect the same name order. Or we can issue a passport in the name of B--- C--- <Surname> if you provide evidence showing that you have changed the name shown on your Hong Kong ID card to match the name. Applicant is eligible to align his/her name on all of the official documents and uses only one name (in the same order) for all purposes according to our policy and procedures.
***
- You have BNO and HKID of Tai Man John Chan
- Your NZ passport is John Tai Man Chan
- You have to send in NZ passport along with your BNO (I was told they require copies of all your other passports)
- Liverpool denied renewal due to non-matching name
That's harsh
It's pretty commonly done by other CANZUK passport authorities
E.g. AU will change my mother's name to married name, AU and CA will add Christian given names even tho they do not appear in HK docs
So if we get docs from those countries that differ from our HKID names we have to reject them on issue? Harsh!
Last edited by percysmith; Jan 31, 2018 at 7:40 am
Jan 30, 2018, 11:55 pm
#98
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That's harsh
It's pretty commonly done by other close Commonwealth passport authorities (I can't remember the term for them but AU/CA/NZ <-- the ones where UK accepts passport holders' signatures and also provide cross-consular services).
E.g. AU will change my mother's name to married name, AU and CA will add Christian given names even tho they do not appear in HK docs
So if we get docs from those countries that differ from our HKID names we have to reject them on issue? Harsh!
It's pretty commonly done by other close Commonwealth passport authorities (I can't remember the term for them but AU/CA/NZ <-- the ones where UK accepts passport holders' signatures and also provide cross-consular services).
E.g. AU will change my mother's name to married name, AU and CA will add Christian given names even tho they do not appear in HK docs
So if we get docs from those countries that differ from our HKID names we have to reject them on issue? Harsh!
We'll have to let BCs having similar catch-22 resolve this. Two years ago when I did my research, it was Indian women naturalized and married BC men. They were already legally going by married name. HMPO requires submission of Indian passport, which has a different name. India will not invalidate Indian passports unless they see the women's British passports, which of course cannot be obtained. I haven't checked what happened since.
Jan 30, 2018, 11:59 pm
#99
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From this email they are asking me to do a formal name change, which I believe is unreasonable.
It seems that they are making the BNO renewal process very difficult for those who left HK prior to the change of sovereignty. Renewal is supposed to be a very straight forward process but this is clearly not the case for me. Does anyone have similar issues with recent BNO renewal?
It seems that they are making the BNO renewal process very difficult for those who left HK prior to the change of sovereignty. Renewal is supposed to be a very straight forward process but this is clearly not the case for me. Does anyone have similar issues with recent BNO renewal?
Jan 31, 2018, 7:23 am
#100
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I know of two ways to force them to issue you a passport: legislatively or judicially. BNOs, unless on study/work visa, do not have a MP to represent them. And if you don't live in the UK, or even if you do, to resolve this judicially costs a lot.
We'll have to let BCs having similar catch-22 resolve this. Two years ago when I did my research, it was Indian women naturalized and married BC men.
The other alternative to name change is to let your other-western passport expire. Then during this time before you renew it, apply for the UK passport. You have one less "valid" passport to submit and therefore everything "valid" will match. Then you renew your other passport. Repeat every 11 years.
We'll have to let BCs having similar catch-22 resolve this. Two years ago when I did my research, it was Indian women naturalized and married BC men.
The other alternative to name change is to let your other-western passport expire. Then during this time before you renew it, apply for the UK passport. You have one less "valid" passport to submit and therefore everything "valid" will match. Then you renew your other passport. Repeat every 11 years.
Since about 2015, HMPO requires submission of all valid passports from any country to renew a British passport, and names on all the passports must match exactly.
The other group of affected people are certain Eastern Europeans who are naturalising in the UK. Their languages inflect the same surname differently for men and women, and/or name changes are not customary on marriage and very difficult to effect in the origin country especially if no longer living there (cf Russian internal passports). In some cases HMPO has inexplicably refused to issue British passports unless women, who may have been married for many years, revert to their maiden name, or in one case suggested that a woman change her feminine surname to the masculine version in her country of origin (that she had not been to for nearly 10 years).
Let me clarify:
- You have BNO and HKID of Tai Man John Chan
- Your NZ passport is John Tai Man Chan
E.g. AU will change my mother's name to married name, AU and CA will add Christian given names even tho they do not appear in HK docs
So if we get docs from those countries that differ from our HKID names we have to reject them on issue? Harsh!
- You have BNO and HKID of Tai Man John Chan
- Your NZ passport is John Tai Man Chan
E.g. AU will change my mother's name to married name, AU and CA will add Christian given names even tho they do not appear in HK docs
So if we get docs from those countries that differ from our HKID names we have to reject them on issue? Harsh!
In the UK, you will always be Tai M. J. Chan unless you change the order by deed poll.
Jan 31, 2018, 7:46 am
#101
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https://www.gov.uk/government/public...uments-group-3
https://www.quora.com/When-renewing-...assport-Agency
My former boss did send in his original HKSAR some years back (before HMPO clarified copies are acceptable), resulting in him being grounded for weeks (I had to cancel a work trip of his to South Africa).
Last edited by percysmith; Jan 31, 2018 at 8:08 am
Feb 1, 2018, 2:17 am
#102
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Allow me to show you how wrong you are.
To make this short - BN(O) are issued based on the name on the birth certificate/HKID unless the applicant has proper court document showing name change.
Regardless how OP acquired her NZ citizenship (by descent/naturalization), her NZ documentation should be exactly the same as shown on the birth certificate/HKID/BN(O), and again unless the applicant has proper court document showing name change. These are the document NZ needs for the citizenship.
The main concern of HMPO is the HMPO want to see the linkage, and there is none OP can provide. So in short of NZ Government making a mistake on OP's passport, the only plausible explanation is OP touched her name in some way causing this.
To make this short - BN(O) are issued based on the name on the birth certificate/HKID unless the applicant has proper court document showing name change.
Regardless how OP acquired her NZ citizenship (by descent/naturalization), her NZ documentation should be exactly the same as shown on the birth certificate/HKID/BN(O), and again unless the applicant has proper court document showing name change. These are the document NZ needs for the citizenship.
The main concern of HMPO is the HMPO want to see the linkage, and there is none OP can provide. So in short of NZ Government making a mistake on OP's passport, the only plausible explanation is OP touched her name in some way causing this.
Feb 1, 2018, 3:27 am
#103
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Regardless how OP acquired her NZ citizenship (by descent/naturalization), her NZ documentation should be exactly the same as shown on the birth certificate/HKID/BN(O), and again unless the applicant has proper court document showing name change. These are the document NZ needs for the citizenship.
I have no direct cases from NZ, but I assume Australia across the Tasman isn't materially divergent:
- my mother got her married name used as surname and her maiden name tacked on as a middle name at naturalisation - her married name does not appear in the BDTC on which her emigrant visa was issued in (so HKID/BDTC name is Doe Ah Ma)
--- Her first set of residents documents (I think this included her Victorian driver's licence) has her named as Ah Ma Doe Smithe. She had to procure a Victorian deed poll to declare Ah Ma Doe Smithe is now Ah Ma Doe Smith.
--- She was finally naturalised as Ah Ma Doe Smith (citizenship certificate --> passport)
--- I now maintain an alias with MPO for this - this trips up green agents who say it's not possible to ticket a booking under Ah Ma Doe Smith (AM name) as Ah Ma Doe (AM alias) (wrong) (resolve by HUACA)
- my sister-in-law was naturalised in the 1990s. Her HKID/BDTC does not have English name (so Doe Ah So). She was not naturalised under married name anymore (so Smith does not appear in her documents), but she adopted a Christian name during her stay in Australia and was naturalised as that (again citizenship certificate --> passport), so her passport is Jane Ah So Doe
YVR Uncle and YVR Auntie both have their Christian names appended to their Canadian passport which do not appear on their HKID/BDTC. Auntie was naturalised as Canadian probably the same time as my mother as Australian so she has married surname (but no maiden surname added as middle name). I had to file aliases for them too.
My sister in law tells me she didn't ask her Christian name be added - she was just asked for it at naturalisation. I don't thinky mother or YVR auntie made any deliberate choices about their surname either - they just handed their BDTCs and marriage certificates in and accepted what the authorities decided to naturalise them as.
On passport renewal (for Australia at least) the citizenship certificate name trumps birth certificate or emigrant passport name so that is the name Australian Passports Office will use, unless amended at a state Births and Deaths Registry https://www.passports.gov.au/passpor...s/default.aspx
At least the Australian Passports Office will accept a (local) marriage certificate (or a foreign one filed with Australian Passports Office), it seems HMPO will not do so.
Last edited by percysmith; Feb 1, 2018 at 5:14 am
Feb 1, 2018, 5:27 am
#104
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While I am not arguing further, such as the difference between AUS and NZ, I am trying to prove my OP is indeed correct.
I understand immigration authorities like to add-on surname for married women. Again - based on what OP mentioned, her name change sounds voluntary to me.