Does anyone here also post on Milepoint?

Interesting thread, thanks for the link...

I'm always amused with chest puffing that goes on when they say how unfriendly FT was in the late '00 - the same FT that had their four co-founders in the power positions of site owner, talk board president, and moderators...

I certainly get it... they saw the mistakes they made first time, sold out for a huge profit, sat out the non-compete, and then tried again with all those lessons learned. I really cannot argue with the logic.

FT was Randy's baby from day 1. It was not started out as a profit center, but an online extension of his magazine where readers could get together and chat.

I'm sure that he did want to make some money from it, and obviously did, but the tone was different back then, though it changed toward the end.

IB bought FT to make money, and I've said it from day 1 that it was going to change because of it. I believe it has.

Like I said, nothing wrong with making money. I was just commenting on the differences in the way each board was started.

That may be true, but it is still pretty funny to see 'the founders' of MP being so critical of the FT structure that THEY CREATED. When Randy ran this place moderators could DO NO WRONG. Now they are ALL WRONG.

But everyone in that thread seems to 'get it' (whether they realize it or not):

MP is a little club. Kind of like Kiwanas. They play games, get together, and take great pride in doing fundraisers and 'good works.' But they are not very useful for the points and miles game.

FT, otoh, is a library. As such there are rules and some harsh librarians shushing people. But at the end of the day it's a damn useful tool where you can learn a hell of a lot and have your questions answered in about 2 minutes.

Clubs are more fun, and folks have a sense of pride and ownership of it. You can see that sense of pride, ownership and defensiveness in that thread. And that depth of loyalty is the one big thing that MP has going for it. Their members will buy just about anything they sell (well, Wall&Main may have been a bridge too far even for the MP members...and the *MEGADO is apparently reaching saturation point). That also means MP will never be as 'big' as FT. And it means they have to do things like the FTEF events and the add-on premium memberships to keep their members engaged and interested, and the business making money. Just like a club has to do fundraisers and spaghetti dinners and offer membership benefits beyond just what they can find in the forum itself. It's smart because it plays to the MP's strength: relatively few members with relatively deep loyalty.

Libraries, otoh, are far more useful but don't engender much love. Library users are not likely to go to bat for them. Their users use them . They don't love them (unless they are library/FT nerds like me ).

There is a place for both, of course. But the notion that MP could ever 'compete' with FT is silly. The points and miles club doesn't compete with the points and miles library any more than the Kiwanas compete with public libraries.

Herein, I am sorry to say, is one big advantage that MilePoint has over FlyerTalk. On FT, as we see in this thread, we are free to discuss whatever we do not like about MP -- but not given the same freedom in regards to FT.

On MilePoint, we are free to discuss what we do not like about MP or FT. It does not have the self-protection mode in which criticism of MilePoint, or of any aspect of it, is verboten.

Koko, you are right up to the point where you say "Now they are ALL WRONG".

I think you will find very fair discussion about FT's moderation on MilePoint.

It is ironic, however, that while Randy apparently learned from the mistake he made on FT and did not repeat it on MP, FT is still keeping that one unfortunate legacy that he left to it.

This is my number one issue with FT. There are a group of moderators, many on this thread and this forum, who feel VERY happy to dole out criticism of others, yet are not willing to take it themselves. They stand in their glass houses throwing stones knowing they can just kick out anyone who dares throw any of those stones back. It is hypocritical and non-democtractic and frankly just stinks. I'm sure Koko will come up with some nice political and intellectual apology for it though. it's just those tough librarians doing there job eh....

Exactly. He realized that moderating the conversation was a mistake, even if he defended it previously. In my professional life I have defended some of my decisions very strongly too, but then when I get a second chance and look back objectively, I often realize the errors of my ways and take the second chance to correct them.

Koko - you make a pretty and elegant analogy. It sounds great. But it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all. In the public library I go to, if I ask where a certain set of books are, someone either tells me very politely or at the very least they show me how to use the computers to search for them. In the FT Library when you ask this you get told you're a jack-..., that you are an idiot, that you don't deserve the book because you don't know where it is and a hundred other people came and ask about the same book so you should know too. After you get over that hump, if you haven't already left, when you find the section you were looking for, it doesn't have multiple books on the same subject. No it has about three mega books that contain everything on that topic since time began. There are a few people hudled in a corner sharing what appears to be some info on the topic, but when you ask they tell you it's for private members only, and you're a jerk newbie who doesn't deserve to read those books. You give up on trying to find the information and start to make your way out. You pass a librarian on the way out and let them know you are not impressed with the way this library is run. They kick out you and tell you not to come back in a hurry. That's the FT library. You leave and go to the Blog library where you find just what you were looking for

ROFLMAO! ME apologize for MODERATORS!?!?

That's just funny.

I have been suspended many times, including once by Randy himself (before he apparently had a revelation that harsh moderation is a bad thing ).

I am not defending the worst aspects of moderation or the bad moderators. Just pointing out the job they have, for better AND for worse.

Here is a fact: when FT was as young and small as MP is today there were no moderators here either.

Randy created the program when FlyerTalk became so popular that Randy couldn't keep up with moderation himself.

Here is another fact: when FT was as young and small as MP is today it was a far friendlier, community-minded place.

It became less so as it became more and more popular.

I'm sorry you seem to have had such negative experiences on FT.

I have gotten a 'do a damn search' response to questions here, too. When I point out that I HAVE done a search and could still use some help, I invariably get it. I figure that's just the difference between the big city and the quaint country. FT is the NYC library while MP is Mayberry, RFD.

My experience with FT has been pretty good because a) I am generally thick skinned, and b) I actually do search myself first and often find without asking. Indeed I would like to think I have answered many more questions than I've asked here. But I do get very saddened by the way newbies get treated. In particular I find by relative other newbies. I see people with join dates of 12 months ago who know a little smack down others. Very sad. This is what drives traffic to blogs where bloggers have an incentive to help all and sundry.

Sounds like we share the same views on moderation. I don't think moderation works on a macro scale like North Korea any more than it does on a micro scale like here, and just drives the conversation elsewhere. Sure things can get ugly but that's a reflection of human behavior. I prefer to see it warts and all. Everything you guys wanted this EMRP forum to be for example has ended up on TBB because he lets people do no holds barred criticism of bloggers, not the watered down stuff you have to have here

Dovster has hit the nail on the proverbial head. ^

Respect for diversity of opinion and tolerance for challenging the status quo was not and is still not a hallmark of FT.

Good points.

But FT, for all of its issues and deficiencies, is still the most amazing points and miles resource on the internet tubes. Blogs are digested easier, MP feels nicer, seminars have their place. But when the chips are down and the miles are on the line, FT is THE go-to points and miles resource.

I wasn't around in the early FT days but I'm not surprised to hear that. I think MP's current vibe is likely due only to its small size rather than any revolutionary aspect to its structure or management. As any online forum grows, it will eventually have more difficulties with sourpusses spoiling things. Same as with real-life groups of people.

Not to be a nerd, but that suddenly made me think of Battlestar Galactica (newer series), with the humans hating so much the intelligent robots that they, themselves, created. I guess the analogy fails after that point, since FT hasn't tried to nuke MP, nor is it led by a sexy blonde Cylon. But I digress...

Over time this aspect of FT may be its major risk, IMHO. There is little to no ability for members to have respectful but candid feedback and public discussion about its overarching areas for improvement. One has to walk on eggshells in some areas or face banishment. Eventually the emperor just keeps walking around naked, and nothing changes.

Again, though, that feature was baked into FT's DNA by Randy.

Randy himself made discussion of moderation the cardinal sin of FlyerTalk from day one of the moderator corps. His volunteer staff were above reproach. Period.

Randy himself made decisions to ban posters 'for life.'

IMHO, our current Community Director is FAR more tolerant and reasonable than Randy was in terms of allowing discussion of the management of FT. She also does not respond to criticism with rambling overly-defensive posts, but instead directly addresses issues. And she stays engaged, contrasted with Randy's infamous 'seagull management' technique. If you have respectful and candid feedback regarding FT's management I strongly encourage you to PM Carol. It's night and day vs. FT's former management.

I think Randy does an AWESOME job of managing a forum that is lightly visited by dedicated members, like FT was when I joined in 1998 or like MP is today. So it is no wonder he is well loved there now. He's got the personality that is perfect for it. But I suspect if he saw the kind of growth there that he got here that allowed him to sell this place for ~$6 million he'd end up recreating FlyerTalk's mod practices all over again.