ingy

And we come back to the issue of personal accountability again. The comments in Ricks Top Deals clearly states no annual fee and give the link to the landing page with complete offer terms. I put that up long before the affiliate offer was available. The links of the affiliate offer also clearly offer the terms including the annual fee and lack of 10K anniversary offer.

I will suggest again, that you are passing the buck without doing your own research. If I told you I to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge would you blindly do so? You are doing so with one of your most important assets and please dont try to tell me that you havew never seen that nor have the capability of comparing two different offers. Are you a responsible adult or need to be spoonfed?. If you want circles and arrows, you are reading the wrong blog.

You have also made statements that you have no basis in fact to make. "Deliberately omitted" is an assumption on your part and nothing more than an attempted slam to make your point. If you can't compare two well documented links and make your decision, might I suggest this game is not for you or you should be at the circles and arrows blog.

gloreglabert

If it's not deliberate, then why don't you add those two lines? It would take very little space and would convey useful and important information to your readers. People can learn everything on the blogs, and a lot more, by reading through all the hundred page threads on FlyerTalk. The primary reason they read blogs is so that they don't have to do that -- and that's basically your product, isn't it? Giving people info in a clear, concise form so that they don't have to do lots of extra research, regardless of whether it's somewhere in the comments on your own site or in a megathread on FlyerTalk.

And I don't think the personal suggestions are at all relevant here. It's already been stated many times that FTers are not the target audience of most blogs, and that includes myself -- I get very little info from blogs and have no need of top credit card lists at all. This discussion isn't about us -- it's about the newbies who most likely WON'T do extra research and most likely WON'T go comparing multiple similar but not identical links to make sure they're getting the best offer. Those people trust bloggers such as yourself to show them the best offer. In some cases, that promise is explicit (see MV), while in other cases, I'd argue the promise is more implicit but still there and still encouraged by most blogs.

gloreglabert

And this is a little more tangential, but I think all the discussion of comparison shopping and so forth misses the point, which is that most people don't have any understanding of the economics behind the blogs. If I walk into a Best Buy and buy a TV at the recommendation of a salesman, then find the same TV a lot cheaper on Amazon, nobody is going to have sympathy for me. That's because everyone understands that Best Buy's interest is selling the product to me at the highest possible price -- the more they can get me to pay, the more profit they make. Thus, it's obvious that comparison shopping is the right thing to do.

The issue is that most people don't make that connection with blogs, because affiliate signups are relatively new and, without disclosures, people may not have any idea at all that it's going on. If people understood that blogs might have a vested interest in getting them to sign up for an inferior offer, then people would be much more inclined to comparison shop, and I'd have less sympathy if they didn't. But without disclosures, it still feels like preying on people's lack of understanding about how the whole system works.

84fiero

btw I wasn't hinting that you don't credit sources, just happened to reply to the post that was going on between you and the other poster. There are however a few popular blogs, who seem to go out of their way to avoid any mention of where something came from - particularly if it came from FT. Maybe it's not that important in the grand scheme of things. But in forums and blogs in other areas of interest in my life, it's normally considered propper to mention the original source or link to it. Bloggers who lift without credit get chucked from my reading list. Just a personal pet peeve.

Nothing wrong with someone making a buck from a blog. But on the other side of the coin, in a public arena bloggers shouldn't be surprised when people call them on things that they find objectionable. Not much different from letters to the editor complaining about a newspaper article's content.

I don't have a general problem with most of the blogs and really like a few of them. But there are some very poor ones and I don't see a problem with questioning things that are misleading. I do vote with my clicks - or lack thereof! :-:

ingy

and the personal PM exchanges that followed. I'm not sure we solved the problems but it was really refreshing to discuss the issue in a calm respectful manner.

I can certainly see both sides, but still don't know how to cut the tension and dissatisfaction, and find a solution that is in the best interest in the community.

After all, we are all travel hackers at heart.

Thanks again

Rick

HikerT

OK, so people should be responsible for their own actions. If you chose to sell your blog and continue to write for it then it would seem you should take some personal accountability now for what gets posted on it. Perhaps that is what you're doing by telling people they can't trust said blog because you chose to sell out?

Rodeojones

Interesting read and I would like to comment from the audience that many bloggers like to target; the beginner.

I entered the world of rewards and miles collecting in September of 2012 with my first card, the Chase Sapphire Preferred. I spent approximately two weeks prior to that researching and studying, learning all I could about the fine art of collecting points. I found FT to be very intimidating and it seemed as if I was reading a different language. I found another message board to be fairly beginner friendly and forgiving but honestly gleaned all my information from blogs. I learned a tremendous amount about collecting points but honestly had no idea about "affiliate" links, different offers for the same cards, etc. In my naive and uneducated (points wise) mind, each card had one offer and the bloggers were simply highlighting the ins and outs of each card.

In my personal experience I found many blogs to be a double edged sword. On one hand I learned a tremendous amount. Cutting your teeth on the mileage game is daunting for someone starting out. There were several blogs that were very good about about breaking down some of the finer points and making them easy to understand. To the point that I am now frequenting FT and don't find it as intimidating and hard to understand. For that I am grateful. The other side of the sword is that some of these bloggers are the same ones that push their affiliate links and at times do not publicize the fact that there are better offers out there.

Maybe in the end there is a trade off for us beginners and we in effect are paying (via inferior affiliate links) for the knowledge that has been imparted to us. I luckily never fell into the trap of applying for an inferior offer when there was a better one out there. But I will tell you this...loyalty is a powerful force. Bloggers who push inferior links will pay the price in the long run because a beginner only stays a beginner for a short period of time. Personally speaking, blogs are no longer my primary source of information and I recently have begun to remove many from my RSS feed.

To speak directly to FrugalTravelGuy, I think both the consumer and the blogger hold responsibility but the blogger a greater amount. As a beginner, I am coming to you (figuratively) for knowledge and you are presenting me with answers. I am going to your "offers" page for a clearing house of links to the best travel cards and I have no idea that these offers change and at times there may be more then one offer. But you do (again, figuratively) and there lies your responsibility to disclose the facts.

The omission is the greater evil in my opinion, not the ignorance.

Lastly, I have no issues with FTG and frankly had never been to his blog prior to today when reading through this thread.

gloreglabert

Good post, I think you hit on most of the major issues. It boils down to transparency, and some bloggers have shown a lot more of it than others. I'm hopeful that this discussion will push the rest of them in the right direction.

itsaboutthejourney

LoyaltyLobby seems to be above all this bickering and is the one I trust most for unbiased info and no shameless plugs of credit cards. While the other bloggers don't always credit them, LoyaltyLobby has broken many stories. LL could use a proofreader though.

My award for the least useful is deltapoints.

belfordrocks

^

iahphx

As the original poster on this thread, and having tried to read the last few pages, I've come to the conclusion that we need a "blog about the blogs" to summarize the disputes, squabbles and money behind the blogs. Who wants to start that one?

lwildernorva

Probably would have been this, http://www.travelbloggerbuzz.com/, but as noted in yesterday's post, it's just too difficult to blog daily and keep up with the remainder of a life. Without daily updates, it may not have the coverage you're looking for.

Probably an object lesson somewhere in there.

gpapadop

Yeah, I am the Travel Blogger Buzz dude who was killing myself doing a buzz post every day I wish I could keep up that pace but it is just not feasible!

Let me just say that I absolutely love this discussion, civilized without name calling. Rick, thanks for the contributions here and keeping yourself under control

And thanks for the offer to put something together. I just do not have the time right now as you know. I will still aim to put something together in the form of "10 Best Practices for Bloggers" or something of that sort. I may even send it to you before I publish it in my blog for your commentary. I just have no idea when I will get to it. As you know, Full and Complete disclosures will definitely be a theme! I am certain you will not like lots of my points and I fully expect that most bloggers will not adopt them.

I believe there is a huge difference between complying with the letter of the law (have a disclosure appear somewhere on website) and the spirit of the law (making it abundantly clear that there is a financial relationship involved!).

To others: Rick has helped an amazing large number of people personally over the years. The guy used to respond (and I am sure still does) to every single email he received! The success of his blog is attributed to the hard work done...one email at a time! And we can all agree that he sold at an excellent time. After the sale...it is just not the same and we all know it.

If I was still blogging daily I would certainly highlight some amazing posts that have appeared here in the past day!

There will always be rude people hiding behind their computers who will rather do stupid name calling. Those should always be ignored! But I always thought that my readers and most people here are too smart and can definitely contribute to the improvement of the community with dialogue like this. So bravo to all.

Just a few additional comments: After a session with a few prominent bloggers at the FTU event in LA, I asked a newbie couple (they asked a newbie question, easy to identify ) what they thought of how these bloggers made money. They said "probably ads?". Yep, clueless about the affiliate credit card apps! And I believe this market is the BEST if you wanted to make a quick buck! It is sad...

Now if someone bought my firm with an offer I could not refuse...I can turn my full attention to my TBB blog and I would look into affiliate credit card apps income to make it worthwhile! And I would do it the way Frequent Miler does: fully concentrate on content, content, content and drop the apps in a separate tab and maybe mention they are there once or twice a year. Yep, this way would likely make it on my "10 Best Practices for Bloggers' post one day

Again, great discussion. I wish I had more time to devote to my blog as I have been a gamer like you guys for many years. To me, it has always been a hobby. Things drastically change when it becomes a business! And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that!

Ok, I am rambling, thanks for listening

reiki4life

I am pretty new to the game (at least without the help of a large corporation helping me get boatloads of points). Out of all the blog sites I frequented over the past couple of months, Rick's was the most helpful, as he tied everything together in one place for a newbie to the game going solo without company help to be able to hit the ground running. I used his Chairman card link and got the card without the annual fee. I can see both sides here, and the overall concern is an issue with some of the blogs I have been to since they put nothing up but affiliate links- but I don't think Rick hid anything or was trying to pull something- it was pretty obvious to me which was the better deal. Now here we are a little ways down the road- still frequent most of the blogs daily- but have decided it is time to tackle these boards- was too daunting in the beginning. Wish I would have started sooner- a lot of creative people hang out here

milesmuncher

My blog is unquestionably NOT the "most useful frequent flyer blog", and I'm pretty sure it never will be. I write for myself, my friends, my family - and the handful of other people that seem to find it useful / entertaining. Sure, I'd like seeing my readership grow, and it makes me happy when my page views tick up - but I don't have the time nor the desire to get really serious, and post 3x per day. 3x per week is hard enough! However, since this conversation has shifted from the original subject, I thought I would weigh in (apologies in advance for the longwindedness).

It sounds like the major complaints are:

1. Bloggers pushing credit card sign-up offers that are not the best offer available
2. Bloggers pushing credit cards too much (because it causes quality to suffer)
3. Bloggers "stealing" content from FlyerTalk (and not giving due credit)
4. Bloggers "killing deals" by "spoonfeeding" them to the masses

Did I miss anything?

My perspective:

1. I don't think this happens all that often, because in most cases the affiliate offers ARE the best offers. The USAir debacle seems to be the most recent notable exception, but there was also the BA situation a little while ago. To the extent that it does happen, I don't think it's a black and white issue. Sometimes the "best offer" requires some serious legwork, and in some cases some ethical flexibility (think changing links to become "targeted"). At the end of the day, it comes down to a basic level of decency and honesty. If, for example, you write a post about how you used USAir miles to book an awesome trip - I think it's very reasonable to then post a link saying "Here's an offer I have for a USAir CC that will get you X miles for signing up. I do get a referral for everyone who signs up and would appreciate it if you used my link". I don't think a blogger is OBLIGATED to post a link / instructions to the BEST offer necessarily, especially if requires jumping through a lot of hoops. Just don't position the link you provide as the absolute best deal out there when you know that really isn't the case. That's the part that crosses an ethical line IMO, not posting a good-but-not-great link.
2. It's easy for me to say this since I don't have quotas to hit, or affiliates to appease, but I agree with this one completely. Not saying it impacts everyone who has affiliate links, but there are a LOT of posts out there that are pretty clearly written solely to solicit referrals. Not going to name names, but one of the funniest ones I remember seeing was a post about paper towels at Staples as a way to pump the two Ink cards. Unfortunately, I suspect that CC referrals are also the golden goose for many bloggers - the source of a significant share of their blogging income. It's easy to say that they should just stop writing these types of posts, but I don't know how you make up for that lost income. It takes a LOT of page views to make any kind of money from ad revenue. Several blogs generate enough traffic to make it worthwhile, but not many. And certainly not us 3rd(4th?)-tier bloggers. What's the solution then? E-Books and other gimmicks? I could actually envision a model where readers are charged a monthly subscription fee ($4.99/mo?) for access to content, and the bloggers who write that content are actually paid per post / word / or whatever makes sense. But this model would only work with really high-quality writing and/or access to information that isn't readily available on all the "free-access" sources. Some might question who would ever pay for access to this type of content, but I remember hearing the other day that NYTimes.com now makes more $ from paying readers than they do from ad revenue. I think people would pay a small premium to access the "NYTimes" of travel blogs, but I could be wrong.
3. This one to me is more about giving "due credit" than it is about "stealing content". It comes down to a basic level of respect - if you hear about a story / deal on FlyerTalk, post a link to the FlyerTalk thread so that people can engage in the lively discussion if they so choose. To be fair, I think this already happens quite a bit (I know I always try to post a link to FlyerTalk threads, sometimes even when I hear about something elsewhere first). It's hard to know definitively where someone first heard a story though. Many of us (myself included) visit FlyerTalk every day, sometimes multiple times per day. It sounds ridiculous to think that breaking news could be found anywhere BUT here, but it happens all the time. Unless you have access to insiders (which some top bloggers certainly do), most of us likely find out about new stories from other blogs, forums like FlyerTalk, mainstream media outlets, or communications directly from airlines / hotel programs (emails, announcement on their sites, social media, etc.). Simple solution: credit your source, whatever that source might be. Again, I think this already happens a fair amount (see all the "HTing" that goes on), but there's probably room for improvement. The other side (for FlyerTalkers) is to not assume that every story originates on FlyerTalk. It's entirely plausible that stories can come from other sources, even when there's a lively discussion already taking place here.
4. This one is tricky to me, because every blog caters to a slightly different audience. Some are very much for newbies, and tend to "spoonfeed" some of the more nuances concepts. Some are much more for those already "in the know" - they often speak in "FTese", and don't worry about who will and won't understand what they're talking about. If your audience is newbies, you almost have to spoonfeed or you're going to lose them. I don't think it's fair to say "well you're not allowed to target newbies, because they don't deserve to get in on these deals". The frequent flyer community has ballooned in recent years, and information moves faster and faster than it ever did before. More people + faster transfer of information = deals are going to die faster than they used to. That's simply the new world order. If you don't want your deal to die, don't share it in a public place (that includes FlyerTalk). Sure, fewer "spoonfeeders" will prolong the life of a deal - but FlyerTalk does plenty of spoonfeeding as well (see all the "Read Post #1 First" threads - the Citi AA 50K thread alone has almost 600,000 page views now!). I actually don't see this dynamic changing anytime soon, but I also don't think that it necessarily ought to either.

Anyway, those are my 2 (very long) cents.