Emirates over rated?
#106
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,282
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/qatar...-horrible.html
#107
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5,447
I'd certainly agree that airline operations, the creation of policy, procedures, and governance systems are not things passengers should involve themselves with (they are, after all, not employees or managers of the airline), but there could be cause for confusion here in that what has also been strongly outlined is that passengers should be aware of these restraints in a general sense (such as that you are probably not as important to the airline as you'd like to think you are lol) to ground their expectations.
If you read your post in full I think that comes across clearly, but I thought it worth highlighting in case someone just quickly glances over the first paragraph. Like a sausage, we don't need to know what goes into it, but we should have a basic appreciation of what a sausage (or airline, in terms of how it acts) tastes like lol (so we don't expect it taste like spinach - or expect airlines to just accomodate every whim).
If you read your post in full I think that comes across clearly, but I thought it worth highlighting in case someone just quickly glances over the first paragraph. Like a sausage, we don't need to know what goes into it, but we should have a basic appreciation of what a sausage (or airline, in terms of how it acts) tastes like lol (so we don't expect it taste like spinach - or expect airlines to just accomodate every whim).
That said, there seems to be something about airports (and lounges specifically!) that seems to regress functioning mature and reasonable adults into helpless babies who have trouble with reading comprehension, motor skills and sometimes even forgetting their own names (Do you know who I am?!)
#108
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SYD (perenially), GVA (not in a long time)
Programs: QF PS, EK-Gold, Security Theatre Critic
Posts: 6,704
It's not that long since QR were in the bad books. How times change.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/qatar...-horrible.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/qatar...-horrible.html
#109
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: The electrified part of North Carolina
Programs: UA GM, AA GM, DL GM
Posts: 4,157
Yes, the "Privilage Club" can be a letdown, just like the other Chinese knockoffs one may encounter.
If the OP purchased "Calvim Klain" shoes and they ended up not performing to his impossible standards, he'd surely find a way to complain about Calvin Klein's poor quality...
Too bad that the OP couldn't figure out how to join QR's legitimate FF program.
If the OP purchased "Calvim Klain" shoes and they ended up not performing to his impossible standards, he'd surely find a way to complain about Calvin Klein's poor quality...
Too bad that the OP couldn't figure out how to join QR's legitimate FF program.
#110
Join Date: Jul 2015
Programs: QF(Platinum) VA(Platinum) EY(Platinum) NZ(Gold) AZ(Platinum) SPG(Gold)
Posts: 278
There seems to be something about airports (and lounges specifically!) that seems to regress functioning mature and reasonable adults into helpless babies who have trouble with reading comprehension, motor skills and sometimes even forgetting their own names (Do you know who I am?!)
I love your last line here - perhaps DYKWIA? statements should be met with the response "No, but shouldn't you already know that?"
#111
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: AAdvantage, Skymiles, Priority Club, HHonors
Posts: 265
What an interesting thread this has turned into. Great debaters here, folks. It's seldom that a thread is actually thought provoking, and this one is rising to really good dinner talk. I wish all of us chiming in on this could get around a table.
I'm actually a relatively easy going passenger. I seldom make a scene or put up a fuss, and am very appreciative of what I get.
Great post about the conversation between the line agent and revenue management. I can just hear it. And I understand the post about needing to get 300 pax checked in and boarded. But at the end of the day, to an F pax on EK, or SQ or CX (or any carrier marketing itself as 'premium'), the fact that the airline needs to close out the flight and doesn't have enough staff to pick up the phone for an F pax isn't the passenger's problem. Outstations or hub, revenue or award, regular on time or IRROP, there is a passenger expectation on premium classes of a certain level of service and responsiveness. In my experience, that's where the so-called premium airlines sometimes fall short. Hey, it's not exactly slumming to spend a couple of extra hours in the Wing in HKG sipping champagne and taking a bath. It's one of those ridiculous first world entitled complaints about not being able to catch an earlier F class flight out of HKG. But in the end of the day, it "did;;t make sense." And that was the point of my post.
Will airlines institute a "common sense" hotline? Not likely. But it might not be such a bad idea. Because if you look at the majority of '.....' posts on FT probably come down to some kind of "It doesn't make sense" interactions
I'm actually a relatively easy going passenger. I seldom make a scene or put up a fuss, and am very appreciative of what I get.
Great post about the conversation between the line agent and revenue management. I can just hear it. And I understand the post about needing to get 300 pax checked in and boarded. But at the end of the day, to an F pax on EK, or SQ or CX (or any carrier marketing itself as 'premium'), the fact that the airline needs to close out the flight and doesn't have enough staff to pick up the phone for an F pax isn't the passenger's problem. Outstations or hub, revenue or award, regular on time or IRROP, there is a passenger expectation on premium classes of a certain level of service and responsiveness. In my experience, that's where the so-called premium airlines sometimes fall short. Hey, it's not exactly slumming to spend a couple of extra hours in the Wing in HKG sipping champagne and taking a bath. It's one of those ridiculous first world entitled complaints about not being able to catch an earlier F class flight out of HKG. But in the end of the day, it "did;;t make sense." And that was the point of my post.
Will airlines institute a "common sense" hotline? Not likely. But it might not be such a bad idea. Because if you look at the majority of '.....' posts on FT probably come down to some kind of "It doesn't make sense" interactions
#112
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SYD (perenially), GVA (not in a long time)
Programs: QF PS, EK-Gold, Security Theatre Critic
Posts: 6,704
I want to add my thanks to rgdave and eternaltransit for the thoughtful sideline discussion. I initially cheered the idea of a "Department of Common Sense" (and not just for airlines!) although I understand the counter-points raised about the problems with timing for issues that arise and need to be resolved during check-in. There may still be a place for this in service recovery or problems that arise well before check-in, though.
Two points I'd like to add to this.
First, airlines have made their "product" complicated and multi-dimensional, to the point where even staff, much less customers, have trouble understanding the rules. (This is not exclusive to airlines; fast food, insurance companies and mobile phone companies have done the same.)
[Curmudgeon] In the Good Old Days (tm), airline X sold you a ticket from A to B for a given date and time, and the choice was pretty much (a) Economy, Business or First and (b) smoking or non-smoking. Simples.
Now there are multiple FFPs with complicated rules based on marketing airline, operating airline, fare basis, status, etc etc. There are multiple methods for upgrading to a higher class, with different benefits for different methods. There are lounges with entry criteria being not just class of travel but whether you paid, upgraded, were op-uped, and then airline status, etc. There are ancillary benefits (chauffeur drive, Dubai Connect) with various criteria that are not only complicated but change from location to location or time to time. [/curmudgeon]
No doubt every rule, individually, made sense at the time from a business cost/benefit analysis. But if we're honest, most of the questions, complaints and discussion in the airline end of FT is because of the complexity of the overall package. Even airline staff or airline IT are often caught out by some of the complex situations.
Which leads to my second point: I agree completely that customers shouldn't have to know or care about the internal processes of the airline. Therefore, an airline's front-facing staff should reflect this in their attitude. They could acknowledge that it's confusing, that they might be mistaken, and if they are right, turn down requests in a polite way. If it's complicated, they could offer to check with someone else rather than just say (inevitably) "no."
In the early days of the EK/QF (so-called) partnership, there was confusion on both sides about lounge access (now it's just QF that's confused ). Both EK and QF were quite rude about it, even when it eventually turned out they were wrong. It seemed to be a case where it was easier to say "no" rather than think about the situation, check with a supervisor, or review the rules. If they can't understand their own rules, they shouldn't be snarky to passengers for being confused. (I'm still trying to get QF to figure out the rules for QF domestic lounge entry for EK Golds. )
Two points I'd like to add to this.
First, airlines have made their "product" complicated and multi-dimensional, to the point where even staff, much less customers, have trouble understanding the rules. (This is not exclusive to airlines; fast food, insurance companies and mobile phone companies have done the same.)
[Curmudgeon] In the Good Old Days (tm), airline X sold you a ticket from A to B for a given date and time, and the choice was pretty much (a) Economy, Business or First and (b) smoking or non-smoking. Simples.
Now there are multiple FFPs with complicated rules based on marketing airline, operating airline, fare basis, status, etc etc. There are multiple methods for upgrading to a higher class, with different benefits for different methods. There are lounges with entry criteria being not just class of travel but whether you paid, upgraded, were op-uped, and then airline status, etc. There are ancillary benefits (chauffeur drive, Dubai Connect) with various criteria that are not only complicated but change from location to location or time to time. [/curmudgeon]
No doubt every rule, individually, made sense at the time from a business cost/benefit analysis. But if we're honest, most of the questions, complaints and discussion in the airline end of FT is because of the complexity of the overall package. Even airline staff or airline IT are often caught out by some of the complex situations.
Which leads to my second point: I agree completely that customers shouldn't have to know or care about the internal processes of the airline. Therefore, an airline's front-facing staff should reflect this in their attitude. They could acknowledge that it's confusing, that they might be mistaken, and if they are right, turn down requests in a polite way. If it's complicated, they could offer to check with someone else rather than just say (inevitably) "no."
In the early days of the EK/QF (so-called) partnership, there was confusion on both sides about lounge access (now it's just QF that's confused ). Both EK and QF were quite rude about it, even when it eventually turned out they were wrong. It seemed to be a case where it was easier to say "no" rather than think about the situation, check with a supervisor, or review the rules. If they can't understand their own rules, they shouldn't be snarky to passengers for being confused. (I'm still trying to get QF to figure out the rules for QF domestic lounge entry for EK Golds. )
#113
Join Date: Jul 2015
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Expanding on from this indeed more interesting progression of this thread (wholeheartedly agree rgdave, certainly more illuminating that just repeatedly be nailing people to crosses), I think people need to appreciate that front line agents aren't the embodiment of the airlines they represent, but are individual people who have their own concerns and priorities that don't always align to priorities held elsewhere in the airline. Revenue Management & Public Relations areas of the airline may put more attention into you as a passenger with regards to satisfaction, than check-in and other ground operations staff will. Simply put, whether you will be a repeat traveller with the airline is of little or no concern to ground staff, it's not the focus of their job and there is little benefit to them directly to make it their concern (although it may end up effecting them indirectly in some diffuse way later).
Eternaltransit's posited transcript of the conversation between check in agent and duty supervisor is pretty illustrative here (as rgdave also highlights) in that the supervisor clearly expresses why are you bothering me with this, it's not my priority and I'm not really interested. Check in agents and ground staff aren't really focussed on (nor ever really rewarded for) customer satisfaction, so the fact you may get one of them to care about your personal situation is often above and beyond - great when it happens, but should be no surprise when it doesn't. [As an aside, I think it should be highlighted that even if ground staff bend over backwards for every passenger, 95%+ of people checking in wouldn't take up any more time than they currently do now - because almost all passengers just are looking to grab their boarding pass and go. It's just those with something atypical that rise above the transactional process]
This isn't an excuse for airline staff not caring (I find it rather odd that you can find people here stridently arguing that X airline is known for having problems with such and such, or being awful at such and such, and that this therefore excludes an OP from ever saying anything about it - terribly illogical and rather smelling of suppression/one eyed ringfencing), rather just to provide understanding why suboptimal experiences abound (and just how great it is when you encounter someone who cares, even though they have no duty nor incentive to do so).
You have to be a bit philosophical to endure the ups and downs of airline travel, otherwise you are on a fast track to a stroke. That doesn't mean you have to be a doormat, just to know when you've reached that point of diminishing return for time/effort involved in resolving disruptions/problems, and to accept less preferred options before you (after all, it's never really been a level playing field between passenger and airline).
Oh yes, couldn't agree more with RadioGirl's point that airlines don't provide highly homogeneous priced products and services (a point I've expounded on myself in other posts), they are huge differentiators on price by audience for the same product/service (there somehow being this one price/value per class/route/etc rather fanciful, and rather pointless to falsely moralise from). Not that it's really of relevance to anyone but the airline (given they are providing the service/product) - I certainly don't spend my flights obsessing whether the other people in my cabin paid more or less than I did for my ticket (just as long as they have a ticket, it's not my concern).
Eternaltransit's posited transcript of the conversation between check in agent and duty supervisor is pretty illustrative here (as rgdave also highlights) in that the supervisor clearly expresses why are you bothering me with this, it's not my priority and I'm not really interested. Check in agents and ground staff aren't really focussed on (nor ever really rewarded for) customer satisfaction, so the fact you may get one of them to care about your personal situation is often above and beyond - great when it happens, but should be no surprise when it doesn't. [As an aside, I think it should be highlighted that even if ground staff bend over backwards for every passenger, 95%+ of people checking in wouldn't take up any more time than they currently do now - because almost all passengers just are looking to grab their boarding pass and go. It's just those with something atypical that rise above the transactional process]
This isn't an excuse for airline staff not caring (I find it rather odd that you can find people here stridently arguing that X airline is known for having problems with such and such, or being awful at such and such, and that this therefore excludes an OP from ever saying anything about it - terribly illogical and rather smelling of suppression/one eyed ringfencing), rather just to provide understanding why suboptimal experiences abound (and just how great it is when you encounter someone who cares, even though they have no duty nor incentive to do so).
You have to be a bit philosophical to endure the ups and downs of airline travel, otherwise you are on a fast track to a stroke. That doesn't mean you have to be a doormat, just to know when you've reached that point of diminishing return for time/effort involved in resolving disruptions/problems, and to accept less preferred options before you (after all, it's never really been a level playing field between passenger and airline).
Oh yes, couldn't agree more with RadioGirl's point that airlines don't provide highly homogeneous priced products and services (a point I've expounded on myself in other posts), they are huge differentiators on price by audience for the same product/service (there somehow being this one price/value per class/route/etc rather fanciful, and rather pointless to falsely moralise from). Not that it's really of relevance to anyone but the airline (given they are providing the service/product) - I certainly don't spend my flights obsessing whether the other people in my cabin paid more or less than I did for my ticket (just as long as they have a ticket, it's not my concern).
Last edited by SuiteFlight; Oct 6, 2015 at 1:51 am
#114
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Kuwait
Programs: WoH Globalist
Posts: 600
I have talked to some people about my recent experience with Emirates and they were surprised at how such a prestigious airline mistreats its loyal passengers. Anyways to get straight to the point, one person told me “why don’t you take that extra flight with Emirates and achieve gold status? I mean you are one flight short to enjoying gold benefits and it would be pity not to take the flight and enjoy the benefits.”
What do you folks think? If I take that extra flight (flex Plus fare for 8k miles) with Emirates then I’m feeding them my $$$ which they don’t deserve. On the other hand, it would be "foolish" to miss my gold status because of a bad incident with Emirates.
Please no immature responses, what would you do if you were in my shoes? Would you still fly Emirates to enjoy the gold benefits? I don’t want to start from scratch with another airline unless they do status match……
What do you folks think? If I take that extra flight (flex Plus fare for 8k miles) with Emirates then I’m feeding them my $$$ which they don’t deserve. On the other hand, it would be "foolish" to miss my gold status because of a bad incident with Emirates.
Please no immature responses, what would you do if you were in my shoes? Would you still fly Emirates to enjoy the gold benefits? I don’t want to start from scratch with another airline unless they do status match……
Last edited by aceboy44; Oct 6, 2015 at 2:01 am
#115
Join Date: Jul 2015
Programs: QF(Platinum) VA(Platinum) EY(Platinum) NZ(Gold) AZ(Platinum) SPG(Gold)
Posts: 278
What do you folks think? If I take that extra flight (flex Plus fare for 8k miles) with Emirates then Im feeding them my $$$ which they dont deserve. On the other hand, it would be "foolish" to miss my gold status because of a bad incident with Emirates.
Please no immature responses, what would you do if you were in my shoes? Would you still fly Emirates to enjoy the gold benefits? I dont want to start from scratch with another airline
Please no immature responses, what would you do if you were in my shoes? Would you still fly Emirates to enjoy the gold benefits? I dont want to start from scratch with another airline
#117
Join Date: Sep 2013
Programs: BAEC Gold, EK Skywards (enhanced Blue !), Oman Air Sindbad Gold
Posts: 6,383
.................................................. ........
What do you folks think? If I take that extra flight (flex Plus fare for 8k miles) with Emirates then Im feeding them my $$$ which they dont deserve. On the other hand, it would be "foolish" to miss my gold status because of a bad incident with Emirates.
Please no immature responses, what would you do if you were in my shoes? Would you still fly Emirates to enjoy the gold benefits? I dont want to start from scratch with another airline unless they do status match
This is, after all, far from an isolated incident ; on several occasions in the past you have recounted other instances of EK personnel giving what you consider to be wholly unsatisfactory responses to your requests.
I say it is much better that you do not get hung up on the status thing, but instead fly with whichever carrier you believe will meet your needs in treating you the way you feel you deserve to be treated.
One final point : IF - after the level of criticism you have aimed at Emirates (and the sort of action you categorically stated you will be taking as a result) - you continue to use them just because of the prospect of a shiny card, then please don't be surprised if your posts are never again taken seriously by anyone here on the forum.
#118
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Manila, Philippines (MNL)
Programs: BAEC Gold [>20k Lifetime TPs] | Hilton Honors Lifetime Diamond [as is Mrs PtF] | Various Others
Posts: 6,156
#119
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: JNB
Programs: Asiana Club, Mileage Plan, Skywards, Flying Blue, HHonors
Posts: 131
[As an aside, I think it should be highlighted that even if ground staff bend over backwards for every passenger, 95%+ of people checking in wouldn't take up any more time than they currently do now - because almost all passengers just are looking to grab their boarding pass and go. It's just those with something atypical that rise above the transactional process].
#120
Join Date: Jul 2015
Programs: QF(Platinum) VA(Platinum) EY(Platinum) NZ(Gold) AZ(Platinum) SPG(Gold)
Posts: 278
At that ratio, I'd say that's more indicative (at least in terms of my experience) of what some lounge dragons experience rather than check-in (although some regions/countries are known to be worse than others, so YMMV by region). Oh, and low cost carriers seem to have more problems here than full service carriers, usually down to more rigid rules/less on offer with LCCs so that will have a larger gap (and passengers not reading the restrictions/requirements of their ticket).