I was back at the Rosewood London this past weekend, in the amazing Scarfes bar, and this time I took a photo of the Bourbon menu. And yes they still have all these ready to pour.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/membe...urbon-menu.jpg

50 ml pours = 1.7 oz. Priced out in GBP. PVW 23 is 88 GBP= $137. 15 pours per bottle. $2055 per bottle... holy cow... I paid $229 retail for a bottle.. Guess they've gone for the higher than customary 3x markup.. even if they paid 229 GBP for the bottle they are still at >5x markup... but it's reasonable give that the PVW 23 can run 90-110 an ounce at a bar in the USA.....

I got really excited about the William Larue Weller at 15 GBP but wonder if it's instead the WL Weller. Two different product, two different price points. 15 GBP a pour would be great for the WIlliam Larue Weller, as it's in the same retail price category as the Eagle Rare 17, Sazerac 18 and Thomas Handy Rye. Thus, I'm skeptical that it's actually the William Larue Weller but if it is drink it up!

I think that the JW Marriott probably has the best bourbon list in London, if not all of Europe. They have a number of pre-prohibition whiskies as well. That all being said that's a fine list at the Rosewood and probably not terrible pricing giving how scarce some of the whiskies are.

FDW

I thought the same thing about the weller - that would have been my go-to on that list followed by Handy. That Whistle Pig pricing is absurd.

Have a bottle of 4R OBSF barrel strength on the way. 11yr 1mo old, 119 proof - was the PA "Fine wine and good spirits" barrel pick.

It's a nice list. But the prices seem high. I guess I'm not used to big city liquor prices. I'll have to stop by Lowes House of Bourbon locally and snap a pic of the price list to compare.

Guys, this is a drinks list from one of the more expensive London hotels. This sort of pricing is fairly common in luxury hotels across Europe. From memory, a pour of Bourbon Eagle Rare 10yo in the Grand Hyatt Berlin (an average priced hotel) was €18. Higher-end European hotels will charge up to €24 for that.

I didn't even see the whistle pig.. wow 56 GBP for a pour... it does retail in the USA for $180-$200 (the new one, spirit of Mortimer)... though technically it's in the wrong section because it's a Canadian product...


It's always a trade off I think for some bars... I've talked to some owners about this.. if they price it according to normal conventions, then they sell through their product quickly... thus most have adapated a higher pricing strategy to limit sales and thus keep stock longer... in addition, it seems that at least in the USA some bars are having to seek out the secondary market for their supply which also drives up their costs/pricing...

you're absolutely right, it is good list with ok pricing... not great but not bad... my best Europe find was at the Park Hyatt in Vienna... they had the Four Roses SIngle BArrel on their list for I think 12 euros a pour, which is a reasonable price... However when the bottle came out, it was a bottle of the FOur Roses Single BArrel Limited Edition from 2012, which retailed in 2012 for about 4x the normal single barrel.. needless to say I finished all that they had
left


FDW

I think I paid about 8 Pounds in London for what seemed like a thimble full of Laphroaig 10. I remember the bartender carefully measured it out so I didn't get "too much".

Still, it was a good drink though.

Not just Big City, USA. Bigger than that. London.

And yes, I would be interested to see domestic (USA) drink prices.

But we all know, it's cheaper to drink at home.

Surprisingly (or perhaps not) for a nation of boozers and binge-drinkers, the UK is quite uptight about measures, which is governed by the Weights and Measures Act. Ironically, it has its origins in ensuring that the consumer didn't get short-changed.

The UK doesn't really have a free-pour concept in most places (sadly), though many bartenders do pour from the wrist.

Elijah Craig barrel proof, 2015 release 1 on its way.

Excellent choice. I've noticed recent bottling's of what used be labeled as "Elijah Craig 12" are now simply Elijah Craig. Different label, same bottle. Is what's inside the same? That's what really matters.

Excellent choice.. the Elijah Craig Barrel proof is fantastic.. I like release 1 and 3 the best (134.2 proof, 133.2 proof respectively)... great color and love all the caramel... Here's a source for the different releases

They've moved the age statement to the back label. It's still a 12 year old small batch bourbon. According to Heaven Hill it's to make the label on the regular small batch match the barrel proof (age statement on the back). According to some conspiracy theorists; the move to the back is a precursor to dropping the age statement. It's been a recent trend to drop age statements (Ancient Ancient Age, Old Charter, Old Weller Antique to name a couple)... who knows, however, Heaven Hill did just recently add an age statement to one of their products, Bernheim Wheat...

FDW

WhistlePig is located in Vermont, which is not part of Canada. But it's rye whisky, which is not bourbon, by definition.

Bourbon must be distilled in the US, and must be minimum 51% corn.

They touch. Isn't that close enough? ;)

Possibly because whistlepig used to be entirely sourced from Canadian whiskey, and as of a year ago was still at least partially sourced from Canada:
http://whiskyadvocate.com/2014/03/19...gs-raj-bhatka/

WhistlePig was listed under the American Whiskey section.. and I will maintain that it's not an American product... as noted by Rob_flies_ua, it is sourced from Canada.. in fact they just received their permit to construct their distillery in the Summer of 2014.. they have become more forthright about the source of their whiskey... until last year they barely acknowledged it was of Canadian origin..

Some of it has been aged in Vermont.. it is definitely bottled in Vermont... but currently there's not a single drop of whiskey in the bottle that isn't Canadian... there's a lot of distilleries (rather bottlers) that will try to spin a good story; a history of the whiskey in the bottle when in fact (as far as rye goes) most of it comes from either Canada or a plant in Indiana... Templeton Rye was the most recent biggest offender of this...

So, I maintain that WhistlePig is a Canadian Rye... a very good Canadian rye, but a very expensive Canadian rye... Alberta Premium makes a number of expressions that are as good if not better and a whole heck of a lot cheaper....

FDW

Might be sacrilegious, but I like the Kirkland 7-year. Its basically Knob Creek at half the cost. It should be noted that I keep this to myself and don't serve it to my friend from Kentucky when he comes over. ;)
http://www.costco.com/Kirkland-Signa...100041197.html

I'm working on a bottle of Buffalo Trace. Will probably finish it over the weekend.

Not sacrilege.. lets be honest most bourbon in the USA comes out of 5-6 places... Heaven Hill, Beam, Buffalo Trace, Brown Foreman, etc... a lot of people buy it up and bottle it... some people try to make up some sort of BS story about the whiskey and charge a premium for it... while Costco is packaging solid whiskey at a great price.....

Nice! Buffalo Trace is a great summer whiskey....

FDW

Did I say before that I really like Larceny bourbon? I took a bottle a while back and put some used vanilla beans in it... maybe 3 total beans split in half which had been sitting in my sugar bin for a while to infuse the sugar. Very, very tasty in the Larceny bourbon (which is a great bourbon on its own IMHO).


My most-local ABC store claimed (and I take this with a huge grain of salt) that Buffalo Trace is going to start becoming an "allocated" product, meaning that each store will get only a limited amount of it and thus it will be hard to find.

This was in response to someone asking about Pappy (LOL), and the manager said, "Even Buffalo Trace is about to be a lot more rare on our shelves," and went on to explain the allocation bit.

I find it hard to believe that a minimally-aged, large-distillery, entry-level (if very tasty) bourbon will become so limited that VA ABC stores ration it out.

Sounds delicious.. I infuse a bottle every fall with apples and cinnamon which turns out quite nicely...


Ahh the dread allocated word... nearly everything has become allocated...

Sazerac rye, Elmer T Lee, Pogue, Rock Hill Farms, Old Weller Antique.. basically it seems that the demand is so high that they've taken to allocating almost everything... but this is the first I've heard of for Buffalo Trace.... by creating scarcity they are making everything worse....

thank god I probably have enough whiskey to last me till I die....

FDW

I saw lots of bottles of BT at this NYC liquor store yesterday. http://www.crushwineco.com/

However I noticed the pretty bottle of Angel's Envy bourbon and had to buy it. :p

rock hill is being allocated in places?

I haven't seen a bottle of Rock Hill in Baltimore in probably 2 years. Same with Old Pogue. I've never seen a bottle of Weller 12 either. But if you look at Florida and Texas they are swimming in Weller. So some of it must be regional. I've heard Louisiana gets a ton of Sazerac yet my local only managed to pull 6-9 bottles a year. I don't really get how this multi tiered liquor distribution works but I can so this with confidence: the consumer doesn't seem to win at all.

Is this your first Angels Envy experience? I'm not a huge fan of barrel finishes but the Angela Envy seems to be the most enjoyable if the bunch.

Fdw

Yes it will be my first, once I finish this trip and can get home and relax a bit.

check fairgrounds for rock hill. I haven't seen Weller 12 anywhere.

Drinking an Abraham Bowman "rare" tonight, the July release of a nearly-9-year "high rye" bourbon (estimated around 45%). I know Sazerac/Buffalo Trace supplies the distillate, and Bowman merely bottles it in VA, but I do like several of their products and like having a "local" bourbon with some age. (There are some true local bourbon distilleries in VA, but none have much age to them yet.)

This one is not bad, but at $70 a bottle, a bit richer than my everyday budget. I've had several of their other limited editions which also were solid bourbons, though probably better-priced at $50 than $70. I am somewhat annoyed that these days, any bourbon with more than, say, 4 years of age seems to run at least $50. I understand why (and yes, there are still $30-ish bargains with 8-12 years of age to them), but I don't have to like it!


Yeah, I've heard the "allocated" dirty word now from a couple of other sources re: Buffalo Trace. :( One of the guys did say, "Well, Ancient Age is bottom shelf, but it's not bad and comes from Buffalo Trace Distillery, if Buffalo Trace itself dries up."

OK, now I've had a bit of time to try the Angels Envy. It definitely doesn't taste like Jim Beam, I can tell you that. :) Seriously though, their marketing claims it was an experiment by their master distiller to do the Port barrel finish and I salute the experiment. And I think they got it right. It's not at all a pronounced difference in taste, but subtle and interesting. And by distilling to 86.6 proof rather than 80, it's a serious bourbon and not a slick trick club drink.

I do think there's very little effect of the port finishing evident on Angel's Envy. Now, their rye does definitely show off the effects of rum finishing (as I posted above, something I like--though I've subsequently also found I like good rye in general and my negative experiences had been with subpar ryes; even a cheap Rittenhouse BiB rye is very good IMHO).

The scary rumor is always that bourbon producers are considering 35 proof to attract "more ladies" away from the flavored vodka realms (shudder--like we need any more demand for bourbon?!--the real reason perhaps being cutting the limited supplies even further). I suspect very few are the real bourbons which will see a drop below 40; increasingly, "real" bourbons seem to be 90 or higher, bottled at "cask strength" in many cases even if just using marketing buzzwords.

After eluding me for years I finally found a few bottles of the 2014 Single Barrel and Small Batch Limited Editions. Cost me $100/bottle, but can't really complain considering how hard these are to find in the wild. Really looking forward to sampling these.

It's all over here in San Diego, I think it grows on the trees.

Wow congrats? Just recently? That's great... i haven't opened my bottle of the 2014 Single Barrel LE; but I did really like the 2014 Small Batch LE... $100 is still a great price; considering that the retail price was $80. Also, 2014 was the last year that they made a single barrel... I'm already gearing up for this year's small batch LE- it's got a great recipe with a little more age to it... In my mind 4R is really killing it these days.. that's the release I look for most... Hopefully Jim Rutledge has the pipeline stocked for the future...

I find the rye finish to be a bit too sweet for my taste; I'm really loving rye for my cocktails.. just replenished my Sazerac stock recently... technically if it's 35 proof it isn't bourbon (gotta be above 80 to qualify as bourbon; maybe even to qualify as whiskey)... it would be flavored liquer.. bleh...sonds gross... I tend to gravitate to higher proofed expressions; the William Larue Weller and George T Stagg are also some of my favorites and they typically are min of 125 proof...

I haven't actually tried any of their stuff before... I know that they are doing some interesting finishes (Gingerbread???) but since I tend to shy away from them I've shyed away from Bowman.. I like the stuff coming out of Smooth Ambler.(WV).. they are now distilling their own stuff and yes it's young but shows great promise..

Thanks for the report.. I have a bottle of the barrel proof Angels Envy which is a just a bit off for my palette.. can't quite put a finger on it but it's seems to be a bit sweeter than I like...

Thanks for the tip-- I'm in there all the time and must just miss it....


I had a Manhattan tonite: Sazerac rye, Carpano Antica vermouth, barrel aged biters, and Luxardo cherries.. yum!

FDW

Angels Envy is going mainstream in a hurry. It got a full page in Wednesday's Winn Dixie (or was it Publix) newspaper insert. And on sale for $39.99.

For whatever it's worth, on my bottle it says Batch #2412, Bottle #480, and the numbers appear to be hand written. If it is indeed hand written and they go mainstream, someone's gonna have a sore wrist.

I couldn't give it away in my bar 3 years ago. I think I drank it all myself, being a team player and all. Back then all the big named aged Bourbons like Pappy, Stagg, and Parker Beam were still around though. I liked it.

Yes, they'd probably label it something like "bourbon-flavored whiskey" or even worse. :eek:

I, too, prefer the higher proofs these days, preferably over 100.


I'm planning to stop by Smooth Ambler's distillery in a couple of weeks as it's along the way to where my parents live. I haven't tried anything they've distilled in-house yet but have liked their outsourced finds under the "Old Scout" labeling.

Found myself with a bottle of Elijah Craig this weekend (empty now ;)). I'm really impressed with the price/quality ratio, I just think it's very hard to beat for an everyday bourbon when you need the taste of a warm summer day.

Yeah, bought them only a couple weeks ago. It was a great surprise to find them nearly a year later, considering that they are so highly allocated and in such demand. In hindsight I probably should have bought every last bottle...but I figured I would leave some for a few (hopefully) others.

They were bought out by Bacardi a couple months back... maybe they will increase production... all they do is barrel finish so it would be easy for them to call up MGP, order some more whiskey and barrel finish it...

Sigh... I passed up Eagle Rare 17, Pappy and the like on the shelf many times... still kicking myself for it...


that sounds gross

try to find Elijah Craig barrel proof; beautiful color... for the aviation geeks here if it's over 140 proof it's considered hazmat and you aren't supposed to fly with it

Nice.. I'ld love to go there.. the guy John Little runs a nice ship... one of my buddies is a general aviation guy and flies there a couple times a year and visits...

The stuff is so good, especially for the money.. They used to make an 18 yr version that was like $40... so tasty.. my current value leader is Old Weller Antique.. $22.99; same mash bill as the Van Winkle...

Let me know where you left it.. I'll go running...

but seriously it's great stuff and that's great find.. the new small batch should hit any day now... nice of you to leave some for the next guy... my local only got 2 bottles of the limited small batch last year...

FDW

went to fairgrounds today to browse the selection and grab something for the shelf. asked about the waiting list for the fall releases and Paul was a douche about it - stated that MD's allocation was cut by ~70% and their allocation would be little to none...fair enough. I mentioned that I'd been lucky for the past few years to grab a few bottles there and asked if he would take my name just in case.

"Have you been on our list in the past?"
"Yes, so are you just carrying it over?"
"I guess, maybe" and he walked away.

I've had good experiences with them in the past with bourbons and wine special orders so I've continued to go out of my way to purchase there. My wife noted a similarly poor experience a few months back and I chalked it up to her being overly sensitive. Now I don't think I'll be back.