I looked through the tipping thread but could no find anything regarding this situation, so please forgive me if it was somewhere else and I did not find it.

So, recently I went to a restaurant with a few friends and had a unpleasant experience. The restaurant, of course, included a tip of 18% in the bill automatically as were a party of 6. But the service was rude and not very attentive, ergo absolutely not worth the 18% - we chose to give less and it got very unfriendly.

Here's my question: What would you do? In general, I find it too proactive to include the tip rightaway, but as long as the service is fine thats OK for me. But what if the service is not worth the amount the restaurant puts on the bill?

In another matter, I am never sure in the US (I moved here recently) if I am supposed to tip based on the pre-tax or post-tax amount. Also, at one restaurant, they added the tip automatically and then put tax on it - is that legal?

They can not force the tip on you. Tell them that you want it removed. If need be, speak to a manager, and let them know about the quality of service you received.

Tradition says that the percentage tip should be based on the pre-tax amount. People are free to base on the post-tax amount, of course.

Here is an example of a tipping card published by tipping.org - note the words at the bottom of the second side of the card:

http://www.tipping.org/tipcardslarge.html

Yes, it's true that wait staff in U.S. restaurants are paid less than minimum wage.

And yes, it's true that tipping is generally voluntary in most U.S. restaurants and that the standard tends to be 15%.

On the other hand, if a restaurant indicates in its menu that the check for parties of more than x will be increased by a tip or "service charge" of x%, it could certainly be argued that the prior disclosure of the tip or service charge obligates the customers to pay the additional charge.

IMHO if the service sucks, have them remove the tip. They don't usually call it a service charge, which I think might get sticky. They almost always call it a 'gratuity'. Whatever they wish to call it, however, I would put up a fuss if the service was bad enough.

On the second part of your question, you are right in that it is not correct to calculate tax on the tip.

I hate the mandatory tip for large groups, but I see the reason for it. Years ago, when I was a waiter, I remember how things went. Large groups almost always 'forgot' to tip, or left something like $5.00. And imagine trying to serve many people all at the same time! It basically takes the whole staff to coordinate it. Six isn't such a problem, but what if there's 15 diners?

How about talking to the manager in a non-confrontational way? Tell him/her how badly things went. The damage is already done, so why not negotiate for a round of desserts? Or a round of drinks?

Depending on the tax rate where you live, it can be really easy to calculate the tip. Here in NYC, the tax is more or less 8.5%. Leaving double the tax as a tip becomes 17% on the before tax total.

An interesting development is San Francisco restaurants adding $1.00/check toward health insurance for their employees. How do you feel about that?

What next? Holiday pay? That is ridiculous.

Stupid. To me, it's the same as fuel surcharges from years past - absolutely no reason an basic operating expense of the company cannot be factored into what they charge for their product.

Also, where's the fairness if I pay a dollar because I'm eating alone, yet come in as a group, and each of those people is paying pennies.

Jeff

In many cases it is common for thge menu to clearly state something like "18% service charge for parties of 6 or more".

In that case, they may well be able to force you to pay the service charge.

As others have said, best approach in this kind of situation is to discuss with the manager in a non-confrontational way.

In the case of San Francisco, this is comparable with adding on tax, or a rental car company adding on a facility cahrge imposed on them by the airport, and not equivalent to energy surcharges.

Reagrdless of whether or not you agree with the San Francisco ordinance, it is quite proper for businesses to show customers the costs that they (consumers) are paying for unfunded government mandates; voters should have visibility of the costs of what their lawmakers do - whether they agree with them or oppose them. It's called transparency.

We have spoken with the manager on several occasions and told them the service was unacceptable and didn't see why we should be required to pay 18% extra, and in every case they have adjusted it once we explained the problems to them.

They want to know, they want to provide good service. I think many times with large parties the waitstaff doesn't feel they need to work for their tip, as most people just pay whatever they put on the bill.

I calculate the tip pretax. Indeed many of the double or triple the tax to estimate the tip in this area (triple the tax in Connecticut for example would be 18%, based on pretax amount, double in Manhattan would be 16.75%) and that is based pretax.

In most states, pay less than the minimum wage is allowed for those receiving tips, although in many states the employer is require to make up the difference between base pay and minimum wage if the employee's tips aren't enough to do so.

However, this isn't true across the entire US. In Minnesota, for instance, there is no 'tip exception' to the minimum wage. I think I have seen that one or two other states also don't allow less than the minimum wage to be paid to tipped employees.

Wirelessly posted (Palm TX: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D050; Blazer/4.3) 16;320x448)

Huh...? No way I buy that wait staff are paid less than the min wage. Laws in the US are taken seriously.... wouldnt an establishment lose their license if busted.,?

The minimum wage that wait staff are paid is, IIRC, $2.89/hr. Tips are expected to bring their average hourly to the Federal/State regular minimum wage.

...and in the great majority of cases to well above it. Indeed, it would be perverse to require the full minimum base pay for those who had substantial tip income - as it would in effect be defining a much higher minimum wage for some workers than for others.

Gaucho

Actually some states allow payment of less than minimum wage as the tips are imputed income to bring the overall wage over the minimum.

Favorite audit victims on federal tax audits are waitpersons (we must be PC) who do not declare enough tip income.

Our laws are as screwy as yours and they are different in all 50 states.