Tour group bumped from flight
Jul 23, 2019, 4:14 pm
#31
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 335
100% agree. And I respectfully suggest first examining the attitude of the companies involved. The behavior of those with power (here, the companies) goes a long way to explaining the attitude of those with far less (here, individuals). It does not excuse the behavior or responsibility of individuals, but it does explain quite a bit.
Jul 23, 2019, 4:19 pm
#32
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,695
The change fee is EUR 0 on most legacy carriers.
That is, if you choose to purchase a fully flexible fare. On the other hand, if you, like most people, wish to take advantage of the substantial discount afforded by accepting an inflexible fare, the change fee is whatever it is you agreed to.
It's a nonsensical comparison. People choose the fare basis which suits them best. So, why are the vast majority of tickets purchased under penalty fares? Because that is what consumers want and they benefit from substantial discounts in return for occasionally having to make and pay for a change.
The discussion here is not whether there ought to be compensation (and frankly until OP returns with some details we can't be sure), but why the first thing that concerns people is what they will get. Not, "gee, how do I get my kid back from ATH and what can I do to backstop DL and the tour company?"
That is, if you choose to purchase a fully flexible fare. On the other hand, if you, like most people, wish to take advantage of the substantial discount afforded by accepting an inflexible fare, the change fee is whatever it is you agreed to.
It's a nonsensical comparison. People choose the fare basis which suits them best. So, why are the vast majority of tickets purchased under penalty fares? Because that is what consumers want and they benefit from substantial discounts in return for occasionally having to make and pay for a change.
The discussion here is not whether there ought to be compensation (and frankly until OP returns with some details we can't be sure), but why the first thing that concerns people is what they will get. Not, "gee, how do I get my kid back from ATH and what can I do to backstop DL and the tour company?"
Jul 23, 2019, 4:41 pm
#33
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sunny AZ
Programs: HH Diamond, Sixt Platinum, IHG Spire Ambassador, Marriott/SPG Gold .....
Posts: 3,215
The change fee is EUR 0 on most legacy carriers.
That is, if you choose to purchase a fully flexible fare. On the other hand, if you, like most people, wish to take advantage of the substantial discount afforded by accepting an inflexible fare, the change fee is whatever it is you agreed to.
It's a nonsensical comparison. People choose the fare basis which suits them best. So, why are the vast majority of tickets purchased under penalty fares? Because that is what consumers want and they benefit from substantial discounts in return for occasionally having to make and pay for a change.
The discussion here is not whether there ought to be compensation (and frankly until OP returns with some details we can't be sure), but why the first thing that concerns people is what they will get. Not, "gee, how do I get my kid back from ATH and what can I do to backstop DL and the tour company?"
That is, if you choose to purchase a fully flexible fare. On the other hand, if you, like most people, wish to take advantage of the substantial discount afforded by accepting an inflexible fare, the change fee is whatever it is you agreed to.
It's a nonsensical comparison. People choose the fare basis which suits them best. So, why are the vast majority of tickets purchased under penalty fares? Because that is what consumers want and they benefit from substantial discounts in return for occasionally having to make and pay for a change.
The discussion here is not whether there ought to be compensation (and frankly until OP returns with some details we can't be sure), but why the first thing that concerns people is what they will get. Not, "gee, how do I get my kid back from ATH and what can I do to backstop DL and the tour company?"
Mans why are not many full flexible tickets purchased? Because they are priced way too high (by the airline) to a point that doesn’t make sense to buy one (unless you have a specific corporate rate).
Jul 23, 2019, 4:45 pm
#34
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sunny AZ
Programs: HH Diamond, Sixt Platinum, IHG Spire Ambassador, Marriott/SPG Gold .....
Posts: 3,215
Even when there are hurricanes, snowstorms, and mechanical issues every flight should take off and land on time.
I similarly don't understand why everyone seems so determined to believe that every person and every company is somehow out to screw you. As I have grown older, I find that it is in fact very rare that people or companies are trying to screw you. Yes it does happen, but more often in business-to-business transactions rather than business-to-consumer transactions. People and companies really do want to deliver, but sometimes whether due to misunderstandings, poor training, snafus that just happen from time to time, or acts of God, things do not go as planned. From there, if you communicate and treat people with respect and smile, 99% of the time you walk away with at least a satisfactory result considering the circumstances and often you walk away with a great result. If you go in with the attitude that the airline trying to screw me because there is a blizzard dumping two feet of snow, I can pretty much guarantee you will not be happy with the outcome. Attitude makes a difference.
I similarly don't understand why everyone seems so determined to believe that every person and every company is somehow out to screw you. As I have grown older, I find that it is in fact very rare that people or companies are trying to screw you. Yes it does happen, but more often in business-to-business transactions rather than business-to-consumer transactions. People and companies really do want to deliver, but sometimes whether due to misunderstandings, poor training, snafus that just happen from time to time, or acts of God, things do not go as planned. From there, if you communicate and treat people with respect and smile, 99% of the time you walk away with at least a satisfactory result considering the circumstances and often you walk away with a great result. If you go in with the attitude that the airline trying to screw me because there is a blizzard dumping two feet of snow, I can pretty much guarantee you will not be happy with the outcome. Attitude makes a difference.
Jul 23, 2019, 4:49 pm
#35
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
If that they were actually intended to be purchased for flexibility, the premium for a flexible fare would be something less than the change fee (under the intuitive guise that most people won't actually change their ticket).
Looking at Delta, even the next-cheapest fare behind a B fare (which is usually a refundable fare) is almost always more than $200 more expensive than the non-refundable fare. For example, ATL-SJC on an M fare is $1241 vs. $1488 (and this route rarely ever organically gets to a B fare, meaning that M is the most expensive ticket you'd have to buy even last minute). Unless I rebook every single one of my flights more than once, it is much more cost effective to pay for the "discounted" (and M is hardly a very discounted fare - a more typical fare on this route is a K/Q fare for $700) fare and pay the change fee. Even if I changed *every single one of my flights once*.
Clearly there is no desire to market refundable fares for their utility as refundable.
I realize that refundable fares return to the method of payment, but still - there is no intermediary product for "changeable without a fee" for legacy carriers - so that is the closest proxy.
Jul 23, 2019, 5:07 pm
#36
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,885
Depends on the destination, how full the flight is and how much time until departure, but the whole flexible fare model has become a little outdated given the minimal price differential between close-in and far-out bookings. The alternative is to wait to book until you are 100% sure you need to travel. You can book a nonstop RT one-week trip departing tomorrow (Wed to Wed) for SEA-JFK for $556. 90 days out Wed to Wed its $328. Difference in cost is roughly the change fee. If you know 100% you will travel one or two weeks out, you do even better.
Jul 23, 2019, 5:12 pm
#37
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,885
and attitude doesn’t make any difference if a computer calls the shots (no out of the ordinary weather involved here). As it looks the airline bumped (probably because of overselling tickets). And then they created the problem as if you sell 100% of the seats (most with change fee etc.) you made your profit and selling more tickets is plain profit driven putting the customer third (as he was never first or second)
Jul 23, 2019, 5:26 pm
#38
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
Depends on the destination, how full the flight is and how much time until departure, but the whole flexible fare model has become a little outdated given the minimal price differential between close-in and far-out bookings. The alternative is to wait to book until you are 100% sure you need to travel. You can book a nonstop RT one-week trip departing tomorrow (Wed to Wed) for SEA-JFK for $556. 90 days out Wed to Wed its $328. Difference in cost is roughly the change fee. If you know 100% you will travel one or two weeks out, you do even better.
Jul 23, 2019, 5:31 pm
#39
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Clearly most people find penalty fares to be better value. If they do, all the better for them. But, one can't be heard then to whine that the penalty for changing is too high when it is the fare one chose to purchase.
Jul 23, 2019, 5:49 pm
#40
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sunny AZ
Programs: HH Diamond, Sixt Platinum, IHG Spire Ambassador, Marriott/SPG Gold .....
Posts: 3,215
With all due respect, OP has not provided (and may not have) sufficient information for anyone to know what actually happened. It's unfortunate how society rushes to judgement before having all of the necessary information to make rational, informed decisions that lead to better outcomes.
Jul 23, 2019, 6:34 pm
#41
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Flying to a boat
Programs: DL DM/2MM, Bonvoy Titanium, Hertz PC
Posts: 823
There were substantial wx delays in NYC yesterday, with about half of all flights at LGA getting cancelled (while mine was only delayed 5 hours). I imagine JFK had a similar situation, so perhaps there was some proactive rearranging done to inbound flights to accommodate for all the folks stranded out there from cancellations.
Jul 23, 2019, 7:00 pm
#42
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: PHL
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, Owner of 2,000 TWA shares
Posts: 812
Jul 23, 2019, 7:15 pm
#43
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: ORD (formerly SAN)
Programs: Hilton Diamond; IHG Platinum; Bonvoy Gold; AA Platinum Pro and United Premier Silver (DH = AA EXP)
Posts: 1,929
It depends on how tour groups are handled in Europe. In Asia, some tour groups are not assigned tickets until 24 hours in advance. So while an expected scheduled departure time might be listed as part of the tour, it's not actually a "bump" since there was no ticket issued for the group yet. I don't know if this applies to OP's situation, but this might be a reason for moving 17 people together (if they were never assigned tickets in the first place).
Jul 23, 2019, 7:26 pm
#44
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: HH Diamond, Marriott Gold, IHG Gold, Hyatt something
Posts: 33,544
Perhaps in response to checked bag fees, seat selection fees, change fees, and the other cornucopia of charges and fees you run into while flying.
Jul 23, 2019, 7:57 pm
#45
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Join Date: Dec 1999
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