Delta to add Seattle-Osaka, Drops SEA-HKG

Old Jun 15, 18, 6:29 pm
  #151  
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Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
Delta has never really been an international airline. It acquired one (NW), and then set out to destroy it and erode all the value that it had gotten.
I agree with most of your posts but can't really agree with this one. Northwest was no doubt very strong in Asia. But that was about it. They offered little more than a shuttle to AMS in terms of Europe service. And they had nothing to India, Africa, and South America. Delta was the largest carrier across the Atlantic with numerous cities in Europe and served India, Africa, and South America. At the time of the merger their two Asia destinations were PVG and NRT. I think they covered the globe relatively well.
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Old Jun 15, 18, 6:35 pm
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Originally Posted by Weekend Away View Post
Last year I was flying into YQB-JFK-ATL and DL stopped flying into YQB. A rep called me personally and informed me and told me they had rebooked me thru YYZ on WS. The timing of the rebooked sucked so I found a better routing through YUL. Problem was, the YQB-YUL WS flight wasn't a codeshare. First call, rep said they couldn't do it. So I HUCA'd. Second call, they put me on the flights I wanted, even though it wasn't a codeshare.

Moral of the story, find the flights you want, have them ready when you call in, make sure they're Skyteam/Partner flights and Delta Will do what they need to get you to your destination. Are you on a paid D1 ticket or award? Basically, this is your lucky day, as you now get to pick your routing and airlines you want to try without worrying about costs.

And as @flyerCO said, origin and destination will need to be the same.
Thanks for the tip. I did just that and was rebooked on KE in Z. Went from SFO-SEA-HKG in OY to SFO-ICN-HKG in Z. I was tempted ask for SFO-LAX-PVG-HKG so I could try the A350 but figured KE J would be fun.
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Old Jun 15, 18, 7:07 pm
  #153  
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Originally Posted by williambruno1975 View Post
if your argument is that Delta must be smarter than us due to profits, Id love to hear their explanation for picking Nokia phablets running the dead end Windows Phone platform other than just paying lip service to Microsoft and its contract. MSFT completely abandoned the platform, and DL is stuck with going through the entire procurement and training process again on 30,000 iOS devices instead.
And it was dead when Delta bought them. It was a fire sale deal.
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Old Jun 15, 18, 7:12 pm
  #154  
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


I agree with most of your posts but can't really agree with this one. Northwest was no doubt very strong in Asia. But that was about it. They offered little more than a shuttle to AMS in terms of Europe service. And they had nothing to India, Africa, and South America. Delta was the largest carrier across the Atlantic with numerous cities in Europe and served India, Africa, and South America. At the time of the merger their two Asia destinations were PVG and NRT. I think they covered the globe relatively well.
India was served by NW via 5th freedom via AMS. They actually operated due to fact AF/KL couldn't under the then treaty with India. Once they could the now DL flight via AMS stopped . One stayed via AMS and the other went to CDG on AF.
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Old Jun 15, 18, 7:30 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


I agree with most of your posts but can't really agree with this one. Northwest was no doubt very strong in Asia. But that was about it. They offered little more than a shuttle to AMS in terms of Europe service. And they had nothing to India, Africa, and South America. Delta was the largest carrier across the Atlantic with numerous cities in Europe and served India, Africa, and South America. At the time of the merger their two Asia destinations were PVG and NRT. I think they covered the globe relatively well.
I can't argue about South America, India, and Africa (to an extent) but NWA didn't need to run a lot of Europe due to its seamless ties with KLM. Outside of LGW, CDG, FCO most of their customers were well served with a quick hop from AMS.
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Old Jun 15, 18, 7:43 pm
  #156  
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Originally Posted by james318 View Post
I can't argue about South America, India, and Africa (to an extent) but NWA didn't need to run a lot of Europe due to its seamless ties with KLM. Outside of LGW, CDG, FCO most of their customers were well served with a quick hop from AMS.
They also had Delta and Continental in Skyteam for those who only wanted to make one connection to Europe. NWA also didn't have the appropriate aircraft to serve most of Europe. So yes you are right that they didn't really need to serve much of Europe. I was just arguing that Delta had a pretty nice international presence before the merger.
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Old Jun 15, 18, 7:58 pm
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Originally Posted by Duke787 View Post
I really don't think the sky is falling the way some in this thread believe. It doesn't really hurt the real corporate traffic in big cities, it just changes where the DL loyalists have to connect (ICN / PVG instead of SEA).
I fully disagree, as someone we constantly do these connections... Asian airlines are not always good - maybe I am too American but I prefer Delta metal and service, positive experience outweight the many negativeness. Here is a breakdown:

1) Water
DL> full size water given you to right after meal, on top of multiple beverage services. FA then regularly walks through the cabin with dixie cup size water and OJ, filled 80%
KE> random pint size Jeju water left on the seat, not every seat... I asked the FA and she said they don't drop on every seat because someone don't drink water... right?!?! FA also do drink runs, and they are in little shot size cup, filled about 50%

2) Meal
DL> snack with almonds/peanuts + pretzels (all sizeable bag)...3 options to chose from, each with 1) hearty salad; 2) side dish like potato salad or smoked salmon; 4) main entree with huge chunks of protein; 5) cracker and cheese; 6) packaged dessert which you could save for later; and 7) bread and butter..... midflight snack including some hearty snack and ice cream/ice cream bar.... prearrival meal either a full meal if long flight, or a hot pocket of some sort with fruit cup and chocolate.....if it's full, you get 1) a salad or side dish; 2) hearty egg-based dish with meat and potato in various form; 3) fresh fruit , at least 5-6 pieces; 4) yogurt (regular size); 5) pre-sealed cup of OJ, 6) croissant with butter and jam.
KE> no snack or pre-meal drink service, 3 options with most inventory of bibimbap: 1) small portion of finely diced veggies and a teaspoon worth of minced meat; 2) giant rectangular of rice; 3) seaweed soup = water + MSG powder + dehydrated seaweed bits; 4) 2-3 pieces of bite-size fruits... .that's it, no bread, no salad, no cracker, no dessert..... midflight = none, nada, nothing of food nature in the galley bar.... prearrival meal is only a half meal: 1) small oelette or asian noodle with no meat; 2) small yogurt (US kid size); 3) small breadfast bread like croissant...
** With DL pax not able to get seat assignment on KE, you are likely sitting in rear cabin. by the time the meal cart reaches you, only bibimbap is left... total calories is probably around 250-300 for about 6-7 hours until the pre-arrival meal.

3) Seat
DL 32" leg room or 35" if in comfort plus, soft foam padding or memory foam on new A350... each with pretty decent recline
KE 34" cross all economy, definitely a plus, BUT virtually no seat padding as typical with Asians want to sit and sleep on very firm or hard surfaces... 3 hours into the flight, my rearend starts to hurt, 4 to 5 hours into the flight, i can't feel anything... 7 hours and beyond: severe pain sets in, lower back and neck area...

4) IFE
DL older IFE 7" or newer 9", with no other control, everything is touched based. tons and tons and tons of movies (new or old) but old system is not very responsive
KE older IFE 8.4" or newer 11", giant remote control... very limited movies choices about 20+. The large screen and remote control actually eat into your space

5) FA
DL old and cranky, give you a lot of water and alcohol so they won't have the come back again, which is a positive for me since I can sleep almost uninterrupted
KE young and beautiful, runs multiple water services during flight using shot size cups and yells out very loud if you want a drink, in both Korean and English in loop... you can almost be sure not to get more than 30 min or shuteye at a time... They call this good service or "inflight excellence".. I call it "inflight sleep deprivation service"
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Last edited by wlau; Jun 15, 18 at 8:12 pm
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Old Jun 15, 18, 8:09 pm
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Originally Posted by acrophobia View Post
As a frequent JFK - Asia traveler and DM, this may be the breaking point where I have to consider other airlines. It really sucks because I also fly domestically a lot, and Delta is by far my favorite carrier for that. But with how difficult they’ve made it for me to earn status and miles on my considerable Asia flights, it is getting really hard for me to stay loyal.
I reluctantly called our company's United rep today whom has been trying really hard to get us to switch, and she told me their phones are ringing all day with similar corporate customers like me... Before I explained why I called, she said oh Delta cancelled HKG and you are considering switching... She start of on a list of things they would do like matching my Diamond with 1K and match 360 with Global Services... She then went on what sounded like a rehearsed script of all the direct flight United has out of SFO... United's direct Chinese cities alone is longer than entire Delta's Asia network

Man, this happened faster than I expected...
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Old Jun 15, 18, 8:10 pm
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A few observation of DL US to HKG

I must have around 100flights from US/Canada to HKGm The following are my observations:

HKG is very competitive location. The only way DL can make it work is to fly from a US point which does not have competition and flyer's who will pay for DL's J product.

The two locations that they have tried recently is DTW and SEA. Neither has the density of former Hong Kongers who needs to fly to HKG frequently or has the means to fly J at DL's prices.

When DTW HKG was running they were price competitive in Y. The Y cabin was quite full out of DTW due to their pricing.
I was op'ed up over 70% of the time. (It is good at the top of the food chain) Base on this observation, no need to crunch $/mile it was not a money maker.

​​​​​​SEA, same issue, filling the J cabin with paying customers. The demand for low season (summer) J is so low that last summer I flew twice in paid J at less than $3000. My GUC always cleared.

As nice as having one airline that serves my US and Into flying the facts are there and writing on the wall.

Most US HKG Y cabins are 10/row in Y, DL's comfort+ and 9/row makes it a better ride.

Time for option B which has been in place as DL is not a non-profit NGO.
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Old Jun 15, 18, 8:27 pm
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Originally Posted by jasondc View Post
There are always "demands" in every market. That doesnt meant that every airline has to have a spot in every market, nor that their network can serve it well.
Cathay is the home town carrier in Hong Kong so of course it's going to have as big a network as possible. That network allows cathay to both serve the USA - HKG market as well as connections beyond.
For Delta, Cathay is just an end point.
Since you seem to think delta doesnt know what it's doing, what would you do? At the end of the day, their network just doesnt allow them to profitably serve this one market, although it's a big one. No need to get emotional or huffy over that.
I see one solution - use HND situation to squeeze better terms at NRT. Restore the old way which were very effective...AM departure out of SEA/LAX/JFK/DTW/ATL using 330 350 767 or 777 depend on the demand on the hub. Schedule all the flights to arrive in NRT right around lunch... 2.5hr of banked pax swap, flights then leave around 2 to 3pm JST. All of intra-Asia flight would get to their destination by late afternoon or evening... They can bring over some 757 767 or even the new 321neo to handle the intra-Asia flights. Park the plane as destination and do the early AM return like before to align with the bank at NRT.

NW had a beautifully orchestrated transfer process - it was good for pax and the airline... newer more efficient planes should make it work and more profitable.

Delta has to stick to a strategy of using old plane that has little investment, or spend the money on new planes to save fuel...cutting secondary cities is one thing but cutting key destinations just destroy your network backbone. For people that routinely fly a few routes, they can always for find new airlines but for those of us fly everywhere, pulling these flights mean we will not pay DL for the most expensive domestic fare just to fly with DL.

I am pretty sure Hainan Airlines and United and benefit from this decision. Hainan already fly to key west coast cities with 787s and their Hong Kong Airlines divisio just started SFO and LAX to HKG. The combined network has a reach to almost every city in Asia.
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Last edited by wlau; Jun 15, 18 at 8:36 pm
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Old Jun 15, 18, 8:40 pm
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Originally Posted by wlau View Post
I see one solution - use HND situation to squeeze better terms at NRT. Restore the old way which were very effective...AM departure out of SEA/LAX/JFK/DTW/ATL using 330 350 767 or 777 depend on the demand on the hub. Schedule all the flights to arrive in NRT right around lunch... 2.5hr of banked pax swap, flights then leave around 2 to 3pm JST. All of intra-Asia flight would get to their destination by late afternoon or evening... They can bring over some 757 767 or even the new 321neo to handle the intra-Asia flights. Park the plane as destination and do the early AM return like before to align with the bank at NRT.
Just so we are clear, you are recommending that DL:

1) Re-establish a hub at a less desirable airport for O/D
2) Beef up a 5th freedom hub, when the trend is entirely the opposite (see QF @ SIN, UA @ NRT, for example)
3) Not leverage KE and the JV for connections, despite that being the entire point of the JV
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Old Jun 15, 18, 8:50 pm
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post


They also had Delta and Continental in Skyteam for those who only wanted to make one connection to Europe. NWA also didn't have the appropriate aircraft to serve most of Europe. So yes you are right that they didn't really need to serve much of Europe. I was just arguing that Delta had a pretty nice international presence before the merger.
Exactly. Delta has a much better presence using their own metal to Europe, and also the remaining pieces of the FRA hub. NWA focused (and did well) in Asia, and relied on their SkyTeam buddies for Europe and beyond. And it worked pretty well. (And despite what others have said about NWA being a 'fire sale' to DL, I really don't remember it quite that way. I'd be interested to see information on that.
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Old Jun 15, 18, 11:55 pm
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Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
Delta has never really been an international airline. It acquired one (NW), and then set out to destroy it and erode all the value that it had gotten.
That is a categorically false statement, disproved by ASMs, revenue, and destinations. NW was, objectively, a smaller international carrier pre-merger and the combined DL has seen increases in international ASMs and revenue that currently exceed that of the pre-merger combined carriers.
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Old Jun 15, 18, 11:59 pm
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Originally Posted by james318 View Post
Exactly. Delta has a much better presence using their own metal to Europe, and also the remaining pieces of the FRA hub. NWA focused (and did well) in Asia, and relied on their SkyTeam buddies for Europe and beyond. And it worked pretty well. (And despite what others have said about NWA being a 'fire sale' to DL, I really don't remember it quite that way. I'd be interested to see information on that.
Given it was a merger and not a buyout, any fire sale comments are obviously misplaced. That being said, it does seem plain that both NW and DL saw the writing on the wall and were actively in search of dance partners. Maybe not a fire sale, but certainly two carriers highly motivated to merge with another carrier.
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Old Jun 16, 18, 1:46 am
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This might be the straw that breaks the camel’s back.

I fly to HKG (and HND) every other month and sometimes i have more than 8 flights in a month to those cities depending on business need and requirements.

being LAX based i am used to connecting through narita through old school 283 and whatever the onward connecting flight number is on the a330-300. When they started the DTW - HKG flight with the 777L back in 2010 ive flown that several times where i connect from the west coast. No biggie for me as it gets me in the same day. Same when the flight went to the a330-200 from SEA. Loved that flight and fantastic wifi on that long segment. timed right. Yea theres CX non stops but serves me not much good being in the states and being marco polo whatever their top tier is.

right now i have 4 flights i need to book to HKG towards the end of the year, and the options delta / skyteam is downright silly.

1) i could go LAX-TPE-HKG on CI but TPE has no skyclub and i cant use any upgrades if i wanted to. Ive taken this flight a few times though and its one of the best wifis in the sky with their 773. Pretty much zero chance for an opup and low priority compared to CI elites.
2) i could go LAX-ICN-HKG but again no skyclub but with a skyteam lounge that i get into with my elite status. Zero chance for an op up and low priority below KE elites.

Someone remind me again why i pay 450 a year for a Delta Reserve card when earning MQM’s will be very confusing, delayed/unreliable?

Thank you Ed Bastian for continuing to dilute this once great merged airline that served my needs perfectly well even without a nonstop flight.
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