RIP CVG
#721
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: RDU
Programs: DL DM+(segs)/MM, UA Ag, Hilton DM, Marriott Ti (life Pt), TSA Opt-out Platinum
Posts: 3,230
That’s not a straw a man as I’m aware of that. My fact pointed out that GE Aviation isn’t the problem within GE as a whole and that despite the other problems within GE, GE Aviation is one of its strongest areas and isn’t contributing to GE’s losses. You arguing to the contrary about GE as a whole when the discussion was about GE Aviation is the strawman.
GE is the company, GE Av is a Division of GE. Investors don't buy GE Av, they buy GE (which is why I used it). Regardless, I seriously doubt either has a great outlook at the moment.
You could just admit you were wrong or unaware and say “Gee I didn’t that despite cargo being small potatoes across the network as a whole that some specific routes do operate profitably in large part due to cargo”. But based on your last response and responses to other posters, I guess you’d rather be argumentative.
It's not an argument, it's a discussion. Keep trolling my friend!
TL;DR: Despite a.net and ft.com keyboard CEO assertions, pax airlines don't operate flights solely for cargo. (note: I know DL was (is?) operating some cargo only flights during COVID19, but that's going to be short term until quarantines are dropped).
Last edited by HDQDD; May 29, 2020 at 10:08 am
#722
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Back in Reds Country (DAY/CVG). Previously: SEA & SAT.
Programs: DL PM 1MM, AA PLAT, UA Silver, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 10,391
I wasn't wrong. As stated, I've worked in both cargo, ramp, system operations, RM and as an analyst. If you don't believe me, just look at an airline's financials. You can keep trying to spew misinformation, but saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Pax airlines don't fly flights just because of cargo. It's ancillary revenue and a small piece of it at that.
Here was the press release from DL when they upgauged ATL-LIM from a 767-400 to 777-200:
Delta Cargos operation in Peru, the largest in Latin America, will also benefit from the Boeing 777s arrival to Lima. This new aircraft allows Delta to increase the average load factor of 17 tons to 25 tons per flight, supporting the expected increase in cargo volume of agro-industrial products from Peru to markets in Europe and Asia. Currently, Delta transports primarily perishable products such as asparagus, mangos, berries and avocados from Lima.
Deltas change in aircraft represents a significant stake in the positive economic momentum Peru is experiencing and a reaffirmation of our commitment to cargo customers who entrust us with their shipments throughout the year, said Miguel LaTorre, Delta Cargo Manager Peru. Delta is a strong choice for Peru to reach not only the United States but also a greater number of markets in Europe where we can offer better transit times to Amsterdam, Paris and Madrid through our main logistics center in Atlanta.
https://news.delta.com/delta-increas...ma-and-atlanta
The article does note the additional increase in seating capacity but also specifically notes the increase in cargo capacity and how cargo (mainly fresh produce) on this route is shipped across both oceans via DL cargo, highlighting the importance cargo plays one such route.
Now I do get that DL has since down-gauged the 777 off of Lima, but DL still runs a widebody on this route, as noted by DL, in large party due to cargo capacity and the cargo DL carries out of LIM. As a side note, I had non-rev privileges with DL at one point through a friend and received the warnings about flying out of LIM because non-revs would not be cleared even with empty seats in the pax cabin due to DL maxing out cargo on the route.
Now does that mean cargo will help sustain that route forever or is solely what sustains a route? No - multiple factors could cause things to change (and something did which caused DL to take the 777 off ATL-LIM). But I'll take DL's own statement in its article about cargo capacity and the warnings about non-reving out of LIM over your statements here on FT in this case in which DL emphasizes the importance cargo plays on its ATL-LIM route, thus demonstrating that there are routes where cargo revenue does play a significant role in the sustainability and the aircraft type dedicated to an individual route.
Going back to CVG-CDG specifically, a WSJ article from 2012 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000...50781305169460) notes that DL carried 4.2 million pounds of engine parts on CVG-CDG per year, averaging about 11,500 lbs a day just in cargo. I don't know if that figure is the same rough figure today but with ~11,500 lbs per day in engine parts worth of cargo on a given route, I would say that the revenue from that does play a key role in sustaining a route and contributing handsomely to the bottom line of that individual route's performance.
#723
Join Date: May 2015
Location: DCA
Programs: AA EXP, DL FO, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 6,712
Seriously? You replenish your inventory with one of the most expensive shipping methods there is? Of course not, you ship it to other distribution centers using cheaper methods, i.e. via boat. Then parts are in position when needed and can be sent to the customer's location via truck.
Thanks for stating what's already been established...slow clap.
Thanks for stating what's already been established...slow clap.
This flight has operated this way for years. It's profitable for Delta, and useful to GE. Otherwise it wouldn't exist.
If you want to dispute this idea, send a letter to GE and DL corporate offices. I'm sure they'd love to hear your opinion.
Last edited by KDCAflyer; May 29, 2020 at 3:01 pm
#724
Join Date: Mar 2011
Programs: Delta Skymiles
Posts: 1,982
I worry about CVG's future long term. I wish that Delta would have prioritized CVG and DTW instead of MSP and DTW. I realize there were issues with what types of terminals, planes, bases, etc. but I just find as a traveler that CVG is more pleasant to navigate than MSP.
#725
Join Date: May 2015
Location: DCA
Programs: AA EXP, DL FO, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 6,712
CVG is definitely more pleasant these days, but the Concourse C days were not fun at all.
#726
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Back in Reds Country (DAY/CVG). Previously: SEA & SAT.
Programs: DL PM 1MM, AA PLAT, UA Silver, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 10,391
As much as I love CVG, MSP is a much stronger market, and has much better facilities for a large mainline hub operation. CVG was designed as a midwest RJ connection point with a decent amount of O/D traffic. Once that business model disappeared, there was no place in the network for a large hub at CVG.
CVG is definitely more pleasant these days, but the Concourse C days were not fun at all.
CVG is definitely more pleasant these days, but the Concourse C days were not fun at all.
In the wake of COVID-19, I too worry a bit about the future of CVG. It seems like DL had "right-sized" CVG and CVG still maintained a decent operation for a city its size, especially with so many other hubs nearby but unless air travel rebounds incredibly quickly, I wonder how much of CVG's operation just prior to the COVID-19 impacts will remain.
#727
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 560
Have to concur with KDCAflyer here. Even as a former CVG/DAY resident (and possibly soon to be back in the area) who would love to see CVG return to its glory days of the 90s and 2000s, it's just not economically viable and in the wake of the DL/NW merger, MEM and CVG were the logical hubs to downsize as DL consolidated the network. The hubs provided little that couldn't be covered by ATL/MSP/DTW. Hubs rely on a combination of O&D and connecting traffic and MSP and DTW both provided stronger O&D traffic while MEM and CVG relied far more heavily on connecting traffic and that traffic could easily be funneled via other hubs.
In the wake of COVID-19, I too worry a bit about the future of CVG. It seems like DL had "right-sized" CVG and CVG still maintained a decent operation for a city its size, especially with so many other hubs nearby but unless air travel rebounds incredibly quickly, I wonder how much of CVG's operation just prior to the COVID-19 impacts will remain.
Have to concur with KDCAflyer here. Even as a former CVG/DAY resident (and possibly soon to be back in the area) who would love to see CVG return to its glory days of the 90s and 2000s, it's just not economically viable and in the wake of the DL/NW merger, MEM and CVG were the logical hubs to downsize as DL consolidated the network. The hubs provided little that couldn't be covered by ATL/MSP/DTW. Hubs rely on a combination of O&D and connecting traffic and MSP and DTW both provided stronger O&D traffic while MEM and CVG relied far more heavily on connecting traffic and that traffic could easily be funneled via other hubs.
In the wake of COVID-19, I too worry a bit about the future of CVG. It seems like DL had "right-sized" CVG and CVG still maintained a decent operation for a city its size, especially with so many other hubs nearby but unless air travel rebounds incredibly quickly, I wonder how much of CVG's operation just prior to the COVID-19 impacts will remain.
Having a non-stop flight on Delta negates many of the disadvantages of getting to CVG. The loss of these non-stop flights, however, makes DAY the better alternative, particularly if the price is the same. In the handful of trips I have booked recently, DAY is now very competitive in its pricing to CVG, and I am usually willing to pay a slight premium to fly out of DAY.
#728
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: OH
Programs: DL Dia, KM, 2MM, Hilton Dia, Natl Emer Exec. Avis Pres.
Posts: 118
Likewise - I live in SW Ohio, about right in the middle of DAY & CVG, but tend to fly out of CVG more than DAY mainly due to the Crown Room err...SkyClub and more direct flight options. That was pre-COVID19. I've haven't flown anywhere since early March and now starting to think about it.
I was searching for a current list of direct flights from CVG & DAY but was striking out.
Anyone have a list of current direct flights (DL)?
Also which skyclubs are open (N. America)?
I was searching for a current list of direct flights from CVG & DAY but was striking out.
Anyone have a list of current direct flights (DL)?
Also which skyclubs are open (N. America)?
#729
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 23,125
Likewise - I live in SW Ohio, about right in the middle of DAY & CVG, but tend to fly out of CVG more than DAY mainly due to the Crown Room err...SkyClub and more direct flight options. That was pre-COVID19. I've haven't flown anywhere since early March and now starting to think about it.
I was searching for a current list of direct flights from CVG & DAY but was striking out.
Anyone have a list of current direct flights (DL)?
Also which skyclubs are open (N. America)?
I was searching for a current list of direct flights from CVG & DAY but was striking out.
Anyone have a list of current direct flights (DL)?
Also which skyclubs are open (N. America)?
CVG has only DTW/MSP/ATL/LGA/SLC flights for June and July, but July has considerably more daily frequencies than June. August has full complement of pre-Covid flights and destinations from CVG (including CDG), but again, DL has yet to make significant changes to it's August schedule and beyond and this will change. The August schedule will likely be updated in two or three weeks.
The list of open clubs is at this wiki -- https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delt...ovid-19-a.html
CVG is still closed.
Last edited by xliioper; Jun 2, 2020 at 8:33 am
#730
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Back in Reds Country (DAY/CVG). Previously: SEA & SAT.
Programs: DL PM 1MM, AA PLAT, UA Silver, Marriott Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 10,391
CVGs loss is DAY's gain in this instance. As a southwest Ohio resident, I usually prefer to fly out of DAY over CVG due to the overall convenience of the Dayton airport. The time it takes from parking to getting to the gate is consistently about 15 to 20 minutes shorter at DAY, and that does not take into account the usual delays driving through the city of Cincinnati and getting across the bridge into Kentucky.
Having a non-stop flight on Delta negates many of the disadvantages of getting to CVG. The loss of these non-stop flights, however, makes DAY the better alternative, particularly if the price is the same. In the handful of trips I have booked recently, DAY is now very competitive in its pricing to CVG, and I am usually willing to pay a slight premium to fly out of DAY.
Having a non-stop flight on Delta negates many of the disadvantages of getting to CVG. The loss of these non-stop flights, however, makes DAY the better alternative, particularly if the price is the same. In the handful of trips I have booked recently, DAY is now very competitive in its pricing to CVG, and I am usually willing to pay a slight premium to fly out of DAY.
Likewise - I live in SW Ohio, about right in the middle of DAY & CVG, but tend to fly out of CVG more than DAY mainly due to the Crown Room err...SkyClub and more direct flight options. That was pre-COVID19. I've haven't flown anywhere since early March and now starting to think about it.
I was searching for a current list of direct flights from CVG & DAY but was striking out.
Anyone have a list of current direct flights (DL)?
Also which skyclubs are open (N. America)?
I was searching for a current list of direct flights from CVG & DAY but was striking out.
Anyone have a list of current direct flights (DL)?
Also which skyclubs are open (N. America)?
#733
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: ORD / MDW / FLL
Programs: DL DM/1MM, AA EXP, SPG Platinum, Hyatt Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 2,295
#734
Moderator, Delta Skymiles and Mileage Run
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Seat 2A
Programs: DL Diamond/MM, Hyatt Diamond, former AS MVPG 75K, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,940