RIP CVG

Old May 29, 20, 9:32 am
  #721  
 
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR View Post
That’s not a straw a man as I’m aware of that. My fact pointed out that GE Aviation isn’t the problem within GE as a whole and that despite the other problems within GE, GE Aviation is one of its strongest areas and isn’t contributing to GE’s losses. You arguing to the contrary about GE as a whole when the discussion was about GE Aviation is the strawman.
Suggest you re-read my (tongue and cheek) post you responded to. My response you quoted was about GE (and my response was to a post about GE). You tried to switch the convo to GE Av.

GE is the company, GE Av is a Division of GE. Investors don't buy GE Av, they buy GE (which is why I used it). Regardless, I seriously doubt either has a great outlook at the moment.

Originally Posted by ATOBTTR View Post
You could just admit you were wrong or unaware and say “Gee I didn’t that despite cargo being small potatoes across the network as a whole that some specific routes do operate profitably in large part due to cargo”. But based on your last response and responses to other posters, I guess you’d rather be argumentative.
I wasn't wrong. As stated, I've worked in both cargo, ramp, system operations, RM and as an analyst. If you don't believe me, just look at an airline's financials. You can keep trying to spew misinformation, but saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Pax airlines don't fly flights just because of cargo. It's ancillary revenue and a small piece of it at that.

It's not an argument, it's a discussion. Keep trolling my friend!

TL;DR: Despite a.net and ft.com keyboard CEO assertions, pax airlines don't operate flights solely for cargo. (note: I know DL was (is?) operating some cargo only flights during COVID19, but that's going to be short term until quarantines are dropped).

Last edited by HDQDD; May 29, 20 at 10:08 am
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Old May 29, 20, 1:55 pm
  #722  
 
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Originally Posted by HDQDD View Post
Suggest you re-read my (tongue and cheek) post you responded to. My response you quoted was about GE (and my response was to a post about GE). You tried to switch the convo to GE Av.
You actually misdirected the convo first by turning a point about GE Aviation into a discussion about GE as a whole, even if KDCAflyer's post just said "GE" it was clear that KDCAflyer's post about shipping GE engine parts was referring to the GE Aviation plant in Evendale and not GE as a whole.

Originally Posted by HDQDD View Post
GE is the company, GE Av is a Division of GE. Investors don't buy GE Av, they buy GE (which is why I used it). Regardless, I seriously doubt either has a great outlook at the moment.
I realize you can't invest in just GE Aviation. But again, GE Aviation and how it's operating does not appear to be the major problem at GE as GE Aviation is operating in the black; the problem appears to be with other divisions that aren't operating in the black.

Originally Posted by HDQDD View Post
I wasn't wrong. As stated, I've worked in both cargo, ramp, system operations, RM and as an analyst. If you don't believe me, just look at an airline's financials. You can keep trying to spew misinformation, but saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Pax airlines don't fly flights just because of cargo. It's ancillary revenue and a small piece of it at that.
I never said pax airlines fly routes solely because of cargo. What I said was cargo can play a key part in sustaining a route. Even if across the worldwide network as a whole, cargo is not a large part of an airline's overall revenue source, it's not misinformation to point out that cargo revenue can play a key role in helping profitably sustain and keep an individual route in the network, for which CVG-CDG is one such example. You even conceded ATL-LIM as another such example as a route where cargo plays an important role in sustaining a route, though you were wrong about it just being flowers; DL carries a wide range of produce on the route.
Here was the press release from DL when they upgauged ATL-LIM from a 767-400 to 777-200:
Delta Cargo’s operation in Peru, the largest in Latin America, will also benefit from the Boeing 777’s arrival to Lima. This new aircraft allows Delta to increase the average load factor of 17 tons to 25 tons per flight, supporting the expected increase in cargo volume of agro-industrial products from Peru to markets in Europe and Asia. Currently, Delta transports primarily perishable products such as asparagus, mangos, berries and avocados from Lima.

“Delta’s change in aircraft represents a significant stake in the positive economic momentum Peru is experiencing and a reaffirmation of our commitment to cargo customers who entrust us with their shipments throughout the year,” said Miguel LaTorre, Delta Cargo Manager – Peru. “Delta is a strong choice for Peru to reach not only the United States but also a greater number of markets in Europe where we can offer better transit times to Amsterdam, Paris and Madrid through our main logistics center in Atlanta.”

https://news.delta.com/delta-increas...ma-and-atlanta

The article does note the additional increase in seating capacity but also specifically notes the increase in cargo capacity and how cargo (mainly fresh produce) on this route is shipped across both oceans via DL cargo, highlighting the importance cargo plays one such route.

Now I do get that DL has since down-gauged the 777 off of Lima, but DL still runs a widebody on this route, as noted by DL, in large party due to cargo capacity and the cargo DL carries out of LIM. As a side note, I had non-rev privileges with DL at one point through a friend and received the warnings about flying out of LIM because non-revs would not be cleared even with empty seats in the pax cabin due to DL maxing out cargo on the route.

Now does that mean cargo will help sustain that route forever or is solely what sustains a route? No - multiple factors could cause things to change (and something did which caused DL to take the 777 off ATL-LIM). But I'll take DL's own statement in its article about cargo capacity and the warnings about non-reving out of LIM over your statements here on FT in this case in which DL emphasizes the importance cargo plays on its ATL-LIM route, thus demonstrating that there are routes where cargo revenue does play a significant role in the sustainability and the aircraft type dedicated to an individual route.

Going back to CVG-CDG specifically, a WSJ article from 2012 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000...50781305169460) notes that DL carried 4.2 million pounds of engine parts on CVG-CDG per year, averaging about 11,500 lbs a day just in cargo. I don't know if that figure is the same rough figure today but with ~11,500 lbs per day in engine parts worth of cargo on a given route, I would say that the revenue from that does play a key role in sustaining a route and contributing handsomely to the bottom line of that individual route's performance.
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Old May 29, 20, 2:55 pm
  #723  
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Originally Posted by HDQDD View Post
Seriously? You replenish your inventory with one of the most expensive shipping methods there is? Of course not, you ship it to other distribution centers using cheaper methods, i.e. via boat. Then parts are in position when needed and can be sent to the customer's location via truck.



Thanks for stating what's already been established...slow clap.
Not sure what your problem is dude.

This flight has operated this way for years. It's profitable for Delta, and useful to GE. Otherwise it wouldn't exist.

If you want to dispute this idea, send a letter to GE and DL corporate offices. I'm sure they'd love to hear your opinion.
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Last edited by KDCAflyer; May 29, 20 at 3:01 pm
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Old May 29, 20, 3:52 pm
  #724  
 
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I worry about CVG's future long term. I wish that Delta would have prioritized CVG and DTW instead of MSP and DTW. I realize there were issues with what types of terminals, planes, bases, etc. but I just find as a traveler that CVG is more pleasant to navigate than MSP.
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Old May 29, 20, 4:12 pm
  #725  
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Originally Posted by cfabar1 View Post
I worry about CVG's future long term. I wish that Delta would have prioritized CVG and DTW instead of MSP and DTW. I realize there were issues with what types of terminals, planes, bases, etc. but I just find as a traveler that CVG is more pleasant to navigate than MSP.
As much as I love CVG, MSP is a much stronger market, and has much better facilities for a large mainline hub operation. CVG was designed as a midwest RJ connection point with a decent amount of O/D traffic. Once that business model disappeared, there was no place in the network for a large hub at CVG.

CVG is definitely more pleasant these days, but the Concourse C days were not fun at all.
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Old May 29, 20, 4:55 pm
  #726  
 
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Originally Posted by cfabar1 View Post
I worry about CVG's future long term. I wish that Delta would have prioritized CVG and DTW instead of MSP and DTW. I realize there were issues with what types of terminals, planes, bases, etc. but I just find as a traveler that CVG is more pleasant to navigate than MSP.
​​​
Originally Posted by KDCAflyer View Post
As much as I love CVG, MSP is a much stronger market, and has much better facilities for a large mainline hub operation. CVG was designed as a midwest RJ connection point with a decent amount of O/D traffic. Once that business model disappeared, there was no place in the network for a large hub at CVG.

CVG is definitely more pleasant these days, but the Concourse C days were not fun at all.
Have to concur with KDCAflyer here. Even as a former CVG/DAY resident (and possibly soon to be back in the area) who would love to see CVG return to its glory days of the 90s and 2000s, it's just not economically viable and in the wake of the DL/NW merger, MEM and CVG were the logical hubs to downsize as DL consolidated the network. The hubs provided little that couldn't be covered by ATL/MSP/DTW. Hubs rely on a combination of O&D and connecting traffic and MSP and DTW both provided stronger O&D traffic while MEM and CVG relied far more heavily on connecting traffic and that traffic could easily be funneled via other hubs.

In the wake of COVID-19, I too worry a bit about the future of CVG. It seems like DL had "right-sized" CVG and CVG still maintained a decent operation for a city its size, especially with so many other hubs nearby but unless air travel rebounds incredibly quickly, I wonder how much of CVG's operation just prior to the COVID-19 impacts will remain.
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Old Jun 1, 20, 8:04 pm
  #727  
 
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Originally Posted by ATOBTTR View Post
​​​
Have to concur with KDCAflyer here. Even as a former CVG/DAY resident (and possibly soon to be back in the area) who would love to see CVG return to its glory days of the 90s and 2000s, it's just not economically viable and in the wake of the DL/NW merger, MEM and CVG were the logical hubs to downsize as DL consolidated the network. The hubs provided little that couldn't be covered by ATL/MSP/DTW. Hubs rely on a combination of O&D and connecting traffic and MSP and DTW both provided stronger O&D traffic while MEM and CVG relied far more heavily on connecting traffic and that traffic could easily be funneled via other hubs.

In the wake of COVID-19, I too worry a bit about the future of CVG. It seems like DL had "right-sized" CVG and CVG still maintained a decent operation for a city its size, especially with so many other hubs nearby but unless air travel rebounds incredibly quickly, I wonder how much of CVG's operation just prior to the COVID-19 impacts will remain.
CVGs loss is DAY's gain in this instance. As a southwest Ohio resident, I usually prefer to fly out of DAY over CVG due to the overall convenience of the Dayton airport. The time it takes from parking to getting to the gate is consistently about 15 to 20 minutes shorter at DAY, and that does not take into account the usual delays driving through the city of Cincinnati and getting across the bridge into Kentucky.

Having a non-stop flight on Delta negates many of the disadvantages of getting to CVG. The loss of these non-stop flights, however, makes DAY the better alternative, particularly if the price is the same. In the handful of trips I have booked recently, DAY is now very competitive in its pricing to CVG, and I am usually willing to pay a slight premium to fly out of DAY.
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Old Jun 2, 20, 7:44 am
  #728  
 
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Likewise - I live in SW Ohio, about right in the middle of DAY & CVG, but tend to fly out of CVG more than DAY mainly due to the Crown Room err...SkyClub and more direct flight options. That was pre-COVID19. I've haven't flown anywhere since early March and now starting to think about it.
I was searching for a current list of direct flights from CVG & DAY but was striking out.
Anyone have a list of current direct flights (DL)?
Also which skyclubs are open (N. America)?
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Old Jun 2, 20, 8:27 am
  #729  
 
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Originally Posted by hortkie View Post
Likewise - I live in SW Ohio, about right in the middle of DAY & CVG, but tend to fly out of CVG more than DAY mainly due to the Crown Room err...SkyClub and more direct flight options. That was pre-COVID19. I've haven't flown anywhere since early March and now starting to think about it.
I was searching for a current list of direct flights from CVG & DAY but was striking out.
Anyone have a list of current direct flights (DL)?
Also which skyclubs are open (N. America)?
There is only DAY-DTW flights for June and July (2x daliy) with a number of dates in July showing sold-out (June looks to have seat availability every day). The August schedule has yet to be cut much and still has 4x daily to MSP/DTW/ATL. While this will likely not remain the case, it's likely the schedule will not be cut as deeply as June and July and DL may restore flying to ATL and MSP.

CVG has only DTW/MSP/ATL/LGA/SLC flights for June and July, but July has considerably more daily frequencies than June. August has full complement of pre-Covid flights and destinations from CVG (including CDG), but again, DL has yet to make significant changes to it's August schedule and beyond and this will change. The August schedule will likely be updated in two or three weeks.

The list of open clubs is at this wiki -- https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delt...ovid-19-a.html
CVG is still closed.
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Last edited by xliioper; Jun 2, 20 at 8:33 am
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Old Jun 2, 20, 9:33 am
  #730  
 
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Originally Posted by dc10forlife View Post
CVGs loss is DAY's gain in this instance. As a southwest Ohio resident, I usually prefer to fly out of DAY over CVG due to the overall convenience of the Dayton airport. The time it takes from parking to getting to the gate is consistently about 15 to 20 minutes shorter at DAY, and that does not take into account the usual delays driving through the city of Cincinnati and getting across the bridge into Kentucky.

Having a non-stop flight on Delta negates many of the disadvantages of getting to CVG. The loss of these non-stop flights, however, makes DAY the better alternative, particularly if the price is the same. In the handful of trips I have booked recently, DAY is now very competitive in its pricing to CVG, and I am usually willing to pay a slight premium to fly out of DAY.
Originally Posted by hortkie View Post
Likewise - I live in SW Ohio, about right in the middle of DAY & CVG, but tend to fly out of CVG more than DAY mainly due to the Crown Room err...SkyClub and more direct flight options. That was pre-COVID19. I've haven't flown anywhere since early March and now starting to think about it.
I was searching for a current list of direct flights from CVG & DAY but was striking out.
Anyone have a list of current direct flights (DL)?
Also which skyclubs are open (N. America)?
When I was SW Ohio, I lived near WPAFB and flew out of DAY, CVG, and CMH regularly. My first couple years there I flew out of DAY almost exclusively but CVG and CMH became more price-competitive in my last couple years there. DAY was still about 25-30 min from where I lived while CVG and CMH were just over 1 hour away (though unlike going to CVG or CMH, I never had to worry about traffic going to DAY). All came down to best combination of price and schedule. With USG travel, sometimes I used CVG or CMH to be able to get DL as long as it wasn't additional cost over what going out of DAY would be on another airline with all costs factored in. I also didn't mind going out of CVG because I would sometime meet up with family in the Cincinnati area either going to or coming from CVG.
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Old Jun 10, 20, 12:15 pm
  #731  
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It would appear, at least for now, AA is the market share leader at CVG.
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Old Jun 10, 20, 12:17 pm
  #732  
 
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Originally Posted by indufan View Post
It would appear, at least for now, AA is the market share leader at CVG.
Whoa!
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Old Jun 10, 20, 5:15 pm
  #733  
 
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Originally Posted by indufan View Post
It would appear, at least for now, AA is the market share leader at CVG.
Remind me to send a sympathy card to the folks in CVG
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Old Jun 10, 20, 6:09 pm
  #734  
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Originally Posted by indufan View Post
It would appear, at least for now, AA is the market share leader at CVG.
Never ever thought that day would come.... WOW!
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Old Jun 10, 20, 8:46 pm
  #735  
 
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Originally Posted by indufan View Post
It would appear, at least for now, AA is the market share leader at CVG.
I doubt it will last for long. DL has 16 daily flights in July to AA's 13.
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