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There is also a high chance that the cards could be on the Amex network. Cardless has 4 Amex, 3 MasterCard(2 personal and 1 Business) and 2 Visa's.
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https://www.wsj.com/finance/banking/...-rent-336dae4b
quite an interesting read and a few thoughts about it 1) given that bilt and wf are the merchant, issuer and potentially acquirer in this scenario, i wonder if they could have avoid the ~1% paid to mastercard by not processing the transaction over the network? they technically dont have to, and the costs will then be reduced to cost of bilt making payments to landlords, cost of wf issuing and some infra/processing costs that are minimal deltas because wf already issues their own cards Most landlords historically didn’t accept credit cards because they refuse to pay the fees for card transactions that often run between 2% and 3%. Bilt structured the card so landlords won’t incur the fees. Wells instead has been eating much of that. This has led to Wells paying Bilt a fee for each rent transaction. 3) bilt doesnt have a welcome bonus, instead what it has is the perk of being able to collect points for rent. if this is nerfed, then i dont see why people should get this card; one is probably better off (with caveats) paying rent with a new card and get SUB. someone suggested capping at 1k per month, that is only 12k points a year and you need to accumulate for approx 4 or 5 years compared to a 50-60k SUB. even if you are someone who doesnt like getting new cards, you are much better off simply by getting a new card every 3 years imo, the ability to earn points from rent is just like a SUB. it isnt going to make the card profitable by itself. you need a well-designed card to do so. wf had expected to profit when cardholders eventually get a mortgage from them. although that didnt turn out so well, it would be harder for cardless because it seems that they would have to compete with other credit card. it definitely doesnt bode well if we look at the bilt survey sent out earlier. the multipliers are mediocre, bilt hotels and bilt dining are poor, and im not even sure credits for bilt travel hotel, bilt fitness and walgreens are useful to the targeted demographics. this is beside the fact that people generally do not like credits in the first place |
I believe the text is the same here without the paywall? https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news...ip/ar-AA1ImnIM
It's a hard market to crack as their target market of rich NYC rent payers already have a CSR and/or Amex Plat and probably don't want another high AF card just to pay rent. If you have to reapply for the Cardless card (previously you had to reapply for the WF card after they discontinued the Evolve card), it's another annoying hurdle. |
Originally Posted by gudugan
(Post 37204178)
If you have to reapply for the Cardless card (previously you had to reapply for the WF card after they discontinued the Evolve card), it's another annoying hurdle.
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Originally Posted by gudugan
(Post 37204178)
I believe the text is the same here without the paywall? https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news...ip/ar-AA1ImnIM
It's a hard market to crack as their target market of rich NYC rent payers already have a CSR and/or Amex Plat and probably don't want another high AF card just to pay rent. If you have to reapply for the Cardless card (previously you had to reapply for the WF card after they discontinued the Evolve card), it's another annoying hurdle. i agree that it is a tough market to crack. but for me, the main problem is nobody is offering anything truly innovative. all credit cards on market are simply replicas of each other, so big players like amex and chase have the advantage due to their better developed ecosystem. when bilt first started, i thought they could be onto something - if they could somehow capture a lot of the mortgage business of bilt cardholders when they later become home owners or link up with moving businesses or provide a reselling platform for pre-loved furniture, etc. these would have tapped into their renter demographics, but they went down the usual route of dining, fitness and travel. and an inferior one at that with the move to target mortgages and HOA, people are once again raving about it, how it will open up a whole market. i disagree. being able to earn points on those things is a perk and something that is money losing. it is not much different from a sub, so the question remains, how to get people to spend on my bilt. and i not seeing any answer from bilt's most recent survey about bilt 2.0. for example why would i want to spend on the no af, 1.5x bilt card? chase can get away with it because it provides opportunities to earn more points with other cards and UR is valuable due to hyatt you think bilt is competing with amex plat and csr, but, imo, bilt is arguably inferior to less premium cards like vx and csp. for the former, it is net $0 af, but has better lounge access and much better overall multipliers (you can easily get 3x dining with another card). for the latter, it is net $45 af, but has more useful $10 monthly doordash credits and better overall multipliers. you can often get 75k sub for either, which offsets the points from rent or mortgage for the next couple of years |
Has anyone gone through Bilt's home buying program? This is the partnership with eXp brokerage where if you buy a home through eXp, you get 1 Bilt point per $2 home price (could be mortgaged, could be paid for by cash). I'm about to close on a $1m condo. I've been reassured by the program manager at eXp that I'll get my 500k Bilt points, but wanted to see if anyone else has gotten the points successfully before.
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Originally Posted by YariGuy
(Post 37209640)
Has anyone gone through Bilt's home buying program?
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Originally Posted by Caspavio
(Post 37203869)
https://www.wsj.com/finance/banking/...-rent-336dae4b
quite an interesting read and a few thoughts about it 1) given that bilt and wf are the merchant, issuer and potentially acquirer in this scenario, i wonder if they could have avoid the ~1% paid to mastercard by not processing the transaction over the network? they technically dont have to, and the costs will then be reduced to cost of bilt making payments to landlords, cost of wf issuing and some infra/processing costs that are minimal deltas because wf already issues their own cards
Originally Posted by Caspavio
(Post 37203869)
2) it also seems like the decision to work with cardless is more due to wf's jun 2026 ultimatum. i dont quite understand cardless, but they seem to mostly earn via af, interchange fees, interests, etc, and they have less opportunities than wf to for alternative revenue streams, so it really begs the question if bilt is going with them and revamping the card lineup, why didnt/couldnt they work something out with wf as that (especially having annual fees) is essentially what wf is asking for
Originally Posted by Caspavio
(Post 37203869)
3) bilt doesnt have a welcome bonus, instead what it has is the perk of being able to collect points for rent. if this is nerfed, then i dont see why people should get this card; one is probably better off (with caveats) paying rent with a new card and get SUB. someone suggested capping at 1k per month, that is only 12k points a year and you need to accumulate for approx 4 or 5 years compared to a 50-60k SUB. even if you are someone who doesnt like getting new cards, you are much better off simply by getting a new card every 3 years
Originally Posted by Caspavio
(Post 37203869)
wf had expected to profit when cardholders eventually get a mortgage from them. although that didnt turn out so well, it would be harder for cardless because it seems that they would have to compete with other credit card. it definitely doesnt bode well if we look at the bilt survey sent out earlier. the multipliers are mediocre, bilt hotels and bilt dining are poor, and im not even sure credits for bilt travel hotel, bilt fitness and walgreens are useful to the targeted demographics. this is beside the fact that people generally do not like credits in the first place
Originally Posted by WSJ
Few projections that Wells had for the card have panned out. The bank assumed around 65% of card-purchase volume would be nonrent, generating interchange-fee revenue. The reality is inverted.
Wells expected that around half to three-fourths of dollars charged to the card would carry over from month to month, generating interest charges. The reality ranges between around 15% and 25%. [...] Wells has told Bilt that cardholder behavior isn’t providing a path for profitability for the bank and that more customers who carry balances and use the card for everyday purchases are needed. Whatever rewards structure exists on the 2.0 card will invariably be worse because WF making the sucker's bet on the current product is publicly known via the WSJ reporting at this point. Cardless/First Electronic Bank (as the issuer in the back) are tiny compared to Wells. FEB's total equity is around $150M USD total, they cannot afford to lose $10M a month, and would never agree to the current rewards structure because it'd put them under in less than a year and a half. Tiered rent rewards on all of the cards based on non-rent spend and a cap on rent rewards would limit the potential downside for Cardless/FEB, and it's ultimately what I expect will be unveiled in BILT 2.0. |
Originally Posted by phltraveler
(Post 37210139)
WF avoided the interchange to mastercard either way - BILT's rent portal processed the rent transaction closed loop. For non-BILT rent portals it was an ACH direct debit or WF mailed the landlord a check. Problem is, WF collected nothing from these transactions in swipe fees, while still having to pay out 0.80% of transaction total to BILT to fund the rewards. This turned out to be highly unprofitable when BILT cardholders didn't regularly use the card for non-rent spend or carry balances as WF was expecting.
It's the only reason. WF didn't have an out to exit the contract unilaterally. So the lawyers pored over the contract and found nothing in the contract prevented WF from making the card have such an absurd annual fee ($250-$300) that nobody would want it and those who had it already would abandon it. BILT blinked and moved to Cardless over having WF pull that move. Whatever rewards structure exists on the 2.0 card will invariably be worse because WF making the sucker's bet on the current product is publicly known via the WSJ reporting at this point. Cardless/First Electronic Bank (as the issuer in the back) are tiny compared to Wells. FEB's total equity is around $150M USD total, they cannot afford to lose $10M a month, and would never agree to the current rewards structure because it'd put them under in less than a year and a half. Tiered rent rewards on all of the cards based on non-rent spend and a cap on rent rewards would limit the potential downside for Cardless/FEB, and it's ultimately what I expect will be unveiled in BILT 2.0. anyway i just meant that between cardless and wf, there is more scope to redesign a more sustainable card with the latter. you could make it a requirement or tier rewards based on having other wf products, such as a savings or investment account, or make bilt and wf points transferrable, etc. with cardless, as you mentioned, it definitely seems like nerfing benefits, increasing af, introducing credits, etc, (basically what other credit cards are doing) is the way to go. and that goes back to my point that, people will be better off getting a SUB than getting bilt |
Bilt appears to be introducing some sort of hotel program that looks like an attempt to compete with FHR/The Edit. Unclear how useful it is; the perks don't measure up to FHR, and I can't tell if we earn nights/points at some/any of these places, or whether we can pay with points/what the CPP would be. It's also currently only for Gold and Platinum, so that limits its utility. I'm just assuming that it'll play a prominent role in the $495 card (and possibly the $95 card, too).
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Originally Posted by bpc3qh
(Post 37210539)
Bilt appears to be introducing some sort of hotel program that looks like an attempt to compete with FHR/The Edit. Unclear how useful it is; the perks don't measure up to FHR, and I can't tell if we earn nights/points at some/any of these places, or whether we can pay with points/what the CPP would be. It's also currently only for Gold and Platinum, so that limits its utility. I'm just assuming that it'll play a prominent role in the $495 card (and possibly the $95 card, too).
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Originally Posted by bpc3qh
(Post 37210539)
Bilt appears to be introducing some sort of hotel program that looks like an attempt to compete with FHR/The Edit. Unclear how useful it is; the perks don't measure up to FHR, and I can't tell if we earn nights/points at some/any of these places, or whether we can pay with points/what the CPP would be. It's also currently only for Gold and Platinum, so that limits its utility. I'm just assuming that it'll play a prominent role in the $495 card (and possibly the $95 card, too).
They can call it AirBnBILT. |
Originally Posted by bpc3qh
(Post 37210539)
Bilt appears to be introducing some sort of hotel program that looks like an attempt to compete with FHR/The Edit. Unclear how useful it is; the perks don't measure up to FHR, and I can't tell if we earn nights/points at some/any of these places, or whether we can pay with points/what the CPP would be. It's also currently only for Gold and Platinum, so that limits its utility. I'm just assuming that it'll play a prominent role in the $495 card (and possibly the $95 card, too).
From Bilt's email (pasted below), the program is only open to Bilt Gold and Platinum members. Introducing Bilt’s Home Away from Home platform: our neighborhood experience expands to the world's most iconic hotels Dear XXXXX, Today, we're thrilled to announce another major milestone in the expansion of Bilt's travel rewards: the Bilt Home Away from Home platform. This platform hosts a collection of the world's top luxury properties, where Bilt Gold and Platinum Members will get exclusive benefits at each property. This is one of our largest investments yet in a status benefit. As a reminder, you can continue to level up your Bilt Elite Status as you earn rewards in our ecosystem. Just as we've transformed how you experience rewards in your home and neighborhood, we're extending that same elevated lifestyle to the world's most coveted destinations. Developed in partnership with Virtuoso®, the world's premier luxury travel network, Home Away from Home connects members to iconic hotels that house not just remarkable accommodations, but renowned restaurants and bars that are true neighborhood institutions—places where locals gather, legends are born, and unforgettable experiences await. The world's most iconic hotels are now your Home Away from Home From Le Sirenuse perched on the cliffs of Positano to the rustic elegance of Auberge du Soleil in Napa Valley, from the colonial grandeur of Raffles® Singapore to hidden gems in the world's most coveted destinations—these aren't just hotels. They're cultural landmarks that define their neighborhoods, complete with bars and restaurants that are true neighborhood institutions. When members stay at these remarkable properties through Bilt, they receive world-class perks, including core Virtuoso® benefits. Exclusive Bilt hotel privileges that transform every stay:
Dedicated Bilt travel concierge: Every booking comes with Bilt’s concierge platform to help members plan their trip from end-to-end—from the personalized hotel room details to transportation logistics, including car services and curated experiences in local neighborhoods. Our concierge service includes access to a dedicated travel advisor, all from Virtuoso® agencies—ensuring the most seamless, white-glove service imaginable. Personalized neighborhood guides (coming later this year): Just as we help members discover the best of their home neighborhood, we'll soon provide expertly curated insider recommendations that showcase the authentic spirit of each destination, including hidden dining gems and exclusive cultural experiences that go far beyond typical tourist attractions—all personalized based on traveler preferences. Powered by Bilt's industry-leading connected commerce platform Our Home Away from Home program leverages Bilt's cutting-edge technology platform, which partners with the world’s best travel advisors through Virtuoso® agencies to connect these advisors with valued members. This integrated approach allows us to seamlessly combine flights, hotels, and neighborhood benefits into unified itineraries while providing continuous assistance through text, email, and in-app messaging. A natural extension of everything you love about Bilt This isn't just another hotel program—it's the seamless extension of everything our members love about Bilt. You're already rewarded for living in your neighborhood through our industry-leading points program. Now members can experience that same elevated lifestyle while traveling, with iconic hotels serving as their gateway to discovering the world's most remarkable destinations. Home Away from Home is fully integrated with your complete Bilt experience:
As we continue expanding this program, we're committed to partnering with hotels that aren't just places to stay, but cultural institutions that embody the spirit of their neighborhoods—from the iconic Harry's Bar at Cipriani® in Venice to the rooftop oasis at La Mamounia® in Marrakech. This is just the beginning. We're building a collection of properties where every stay feels like coming home to a neighborhood you've always belonged to, no matter where in the world you find yourself. Ready to make the world your neighborhood? Head to your Bilt account and discover Home Away from Home. Love where you live—and love where you travel. Ankur Jain Founder & CEO, Bilt |
Originally Posted by Wyfind
(Post 37211442)
It's a white-label partnership with Virtuoso. (See Bilt's landing page called "Home Away From Home.")
From Bilt's email (pasted below), the program is only open to Bilt Gold and Platinum members. |
Everyone is missing the MAIN point. Ankur Jain apparently is now a billionaire. Bilt could go tango uniform*, we can all get the short end of the stick, WF will still lose lots more money, investors could lose all they put it, but he’ll still be a billionaire. Venture capital financing at its finest.
(* Adjective. tango uniform (military slang) “Toes Up”, broken and unable to be fixed; dead. I can never fly my fighter again, it’s tango uniform. Some people use a different anatomic “T” word for “tango” ;).) |
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