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Remember the CSR customer service team will refund you the DCC loss immediately. Even on small transactions.
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger
(Post 29750143)
Do you think that if you had clearly said "Euro!" first it would've made a difference? From your description, it sounded as though she DCC'ed on purpose?
Mind you, the transaction amount is small, like 14 euro in total I think. Not worth to spend time and effort to get it straight when the line was very long and moved very slowly despite we were the only ship in town. FYI it is coded 1x on the CSR. On all other transactions during the trip, primarily restaurant meals and B&B payments, some supermarkets, when I told them to use Euro, most seem to fully understand. Not a single attempt of DCC in Barcelona that surprised me. All Trenitalia ticket windows charged in Euro. All attractions ticket offices in Sicily also charged in Euro. We even successfully get Avis to remove the automatic DCC part from the final bill as the agent at Pick Up did not remove the default clause just verbally assured us it would be in Euro. We knew better than that. |
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 29752904)
I dont know if it would make a difference. She might just do it out of habit. Or it was the "only" way she knew how to process foreign card. I have similar experiences at Poland railway station where the lady simply shrugged and told me that was the "only" way she knew how to do it despite her co-worker handled the transaction correctly earlier in the day.
Mind you, the transaction amount is small, like 14 euro in total I think. Not worth to spend time and effort to get it straight when the line was very long and moved very slowly despite we were the only ship in town. FYI it is coded 1x on the CSR. On all other transactions during the trip, primarily restaurant meals and B&B payments, some supermarkets, when I told them to use Euro, most seem to fully understand. Not a single attempt of DCC in Barcelona that surprised me. All Trenitalia ticket windows charged in Euro. All attractions ticket offices in Sicily also charged in Euro. We even successfully get Avis to remove the automatic DCC part from the final bill as the agent at Pick Up did not remove the default clause just verbally assured us it would be in Euro. We knew better than that. |
Originally Posted by firemandan9
(Post 29750153)
Particularly on larger transactions I specify I want to pay in the local currency (Euro) up front. I've had one too many restaurants try and tell me how good of a "deal" DCC is for me after auto enrolling me.
Last year at Dubai I told the waiter to charge in local currency only being handed a transaction slip that was DCCed - never being presented an option. The dispute process with Chase was a VERY LONG DRAWN OUT process when dispute it online. I believe I have written the incident in length on this thread. (The merchant contested the dispute and refused to reinvoice. Chase sent me 20 pages stack of documents showing the transaction chain from merchant to processor to the bank! Chase offered a $40 credit to a $49 bill but the credit never actually posted albeit I did see it "reflected" in the available credit total, agent who handled this never returned phone call. Long story short, it was a supervisor at the general customer service number took it up and promptly saw the mishap, issued the $40 credit which showed up the next day. It seems it is much simpler to just CALL to dispute the DCC instead of filing the dispute online despite it has such option to use in the menu of online dispute. Forget about asking for rebilling, just get back the portion being scammed. Friends' experiences have been, a supervisor would simply process the credit on the phone and it is done. |
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 29752904)
We even successfully get Avis to remove the automatic DCC part from the final bill as the agent at Pick Up did not remove the default clause just verbally assured us it would be in Euro. We knew better than that.
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 29752942)
It seems it is much simpler to just CALL to dispute the DCC instead of filing the dispute online despite it has such option to use in the menu of online dispute. Forget about asking for rebilling, just get back the portion being scammed. Friends' experiences have been, a supervisor would simply process the credit on the phone and it is done.
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 29754821)
I've noticed that Hertz in Italy does not DCC. Good job with Avis. I think there's also some profile setting with Avis?.
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 29754821)
I remember your issue with the restaurant in Dubai. Calling Chase might be the easiest option, but part of me dislikes that the merchants are getting away with the scam. I love Reason Code 76 chargebacks because the merchant at least feels a sting, even if the merchant has to contest it. Enough of those situations might motivate the merchant to change its behavior.
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Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 29758844)
USD went down A Lot by the time rental happened. We were billed the EXACT amount of USD shown on reservation, resulted to $30+ cheaper bill than if it was billed in Euro then converted to USD on market rate by the bank.
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 29758844)
Merchants could not care less. It is only making you feel good by doing the Code 76 dispute, or wishfully thinking that enough people pursuit such route would make merchants change their behaviors. Dream on. In all reality it just creates more work to the banks which absorb the difference almost all the times. I dont think Chase ever charges back to the restaurant in Dubai, but simply paid me $40 for a $2.70 difference had the charge being rebilled. It costs Chase, not the merchant who just contested the dispute and Chase gave up because it is totally NOT cost-effective for the bank to pursuit.
I'll be the first to admit that it's a dispute on principle most of the time, and that was the reason I started this thread over four years ago. However, I would argue that it's also the FlyerTalk way. People howl when they are shortchanged 500 miles. Why not $5? To think about DCC another way, if you paid €100 cash on a restaurant bill that was €95 and you received no change, what would you do? Would you demand your change or accept the loss? The only reason why DCC is so pervasive is largely out of customer ignorance that they're effectively getting shortchanged. |
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 29758844)
Nah. It has nothing to do with the profile. We booked thru Budget without using Fast Track account but in Italy the billing is done by Avis. The RA has Avis Budget Group Italy heading. It is the opposite in Turkey where we booked thru Avis but the billing was done by Budget. I would say it is 100% depending on how helpful the agent is. i.e. willing to go thru the trouble and remove the clause from the system. Though sometimes it still does not work.
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 29758844)
Had that happened in Frankfurt a few years ago but in that particular time, the rate used was the rate at reservation. USD went down A Lot by the time rental happened. We were billed the EXACT amount of USD shown on reservation, resulted to $30+ cheaper bill than if it was billed in Euro then converted to USD on market rate by the bank.
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Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 29758844)
Merchants could not care less. It is only making you feel good by doing the Code 76 dispute, or wishfully thinking that enough people pursuit such route would make merchants change their behaviors. Dream on. In all reality it just creates more work to the banks which absorb the difference almost all the times. I dont think Chase ever charges back to the restaurant in Dubai, but simply paid me $40 for a $2.70 difference had the charge being rebilled. It costs Chase, not the merchant who just contested the dispute and Chase gave up because it is totally NOT cost-effective for the bank to pursuit.
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Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 29760196)
Reads as justification for sloth. Which is Visa's game plan - getting away with it 99 times justifies the one case who fights back. |
Not DCC but I had an interesting experience at a store in MEX post-security. While buying a new phone charger, the clerk scanned my boarding pass and passport and proceeded to ring me up in USD. (Prices on items were marked in both MXP and USD.) The person in front of me, on the other hand, looked to have a Peruvian passport and was given a currency choice before her card was inserted. I didn't see any prompts on the PIN pad itself, which of course was on the cashier side as is Mexican custom. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I'll have to look at the receipts more closely to see if MXP would have been significantly better. |
Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 29794345)
Not DCC but I had an interesting experience at a store in MEX post-security. While buying a new phone charger, the clerk scanned my boarding pass and passport and proceeded to ring me up in USD. (Prices on items were marked in both MXP and USD.)
On another note, I've got a contender for most egregious DCC offer that I've ever seen when klashn withdrew money from a Euronet ATM at Henri Coandă International Airport last night. The offer was as follows: Exchange rate 3.4865 RON/USD DCC Amount: $229.45 Mastercard Amount: $202.81 Amount of DCC overcharge: $26.64 Effective DCC rate: 13.1% I thought Mastercard requires the percentage to be listed as well as the exchange rate? There were also two prompts to opt out of DCC. While we didn't try the DCC option of course, I would have liked to have seen if there was a, "Are you really sure you don't want to use DCC?" prompt if accepting DCC. I'm also pretty sure that according to both Visa and Mastercard the choice needs to be neutral and not try to steer a customer toward one choice. |
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 29794444)
Yes, please let us know. This is similar to places like the Cayman Islands that price in Cayman Islands dollars but then complete credit card transactions in USD using their own exchange rate of 0.80 KYD = 1 USD. In reality the exchange rate is 1 USD = 1.20 KYD, so the restaurant's exchange rate is 4% worse, but there is no way to opt out because they have USD capable credit card terminals. They also say they have no way to use the KYD terminal unless one's card is KYD. In another case, there are certain restaurants in Aruba that also price in USD even though their native currency is the florin. I don't know if a local comes in whether or not the person would be able to pay in AWG or use of USD is mandatory. There's another case with Lotte in Korea where there are products priced in USD. Again, I don't know how it works if a Korean comes in and wants to buy something with a card denominated in KRW. Perhaps percysmith might know in the Lotte case.
On another note, I've got a contender for most egregious DCC offer that I've ever seen when klashn withdrew money from a Euronet ATM at Henri Coandă International Airport last night. The offer was as follows: Exchange rate 3.4865 RON/USD DCC Amount: $229.45 Mastercard Amount: $202.81 Amount of DCC overcharge: $26.64 Effective DCC rate: 13.1% I thought Mastercard requires the percentage to be listed as well as the exchange rate? There were also two prompts to opt out of DCC. While we didn't try the DCC option of course, I would have liked to have seen if there was a, "Are you really sure you don't want to use DCC?" prompt if accepting DCC. I'm also pretty sure that according to both Visa and Mastercard the choice needs to be neutral and not try to steer a customer toward one choice. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...b16ce060e4.jpghttps://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...70562071db.jpg Unfortunately, I don't think I have much recourse, but at least it's something to keep in mind for next time. |
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 29794444)
Yes, please let us know. This is similar to places like the Cayman Islands that price in Cayman Islands dollars but then complete credit card transactions in USD using their own exchange rate of 0.80 KYD = 1 USD. In reality the exchange rate is 1 USD = 1.20 KYD, so the restaurant's exchange rate is 4% worse, but there is no way to opt out because they have USD capable credit card terminals.
(Put another way: in one instance, 100 USD gets you 80 KYD and in the other 100 USD gets you 120 KYD.) |
Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 29794791)
Unfortunately, I don't think I have much recourse, but at least it's something to keep in mind for next time.
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Originally Posted by Diplomatico
(Post 29794867)
That is not a 4% difference - it's a 33% difference. (.4/1.2 = .33)
(Put another way: in one instance, 100 USD gets you 80 KYD and in the other 100 USD gets you 120 KYD.) |
Originally Posted by tayfor2011
(Post 29795984)
His original statement was backwards, it is actually 120 USD = 100 KYD
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Just got DCCed at Lavo Jazz Bar in Shenzhen - they had Agricultural Bank of China machines and the DCC was automatic - nothing showed up - you signed on the screen and it was only at the end when the receipt was printed that I noticed after leaving that the DCC verbiage was on the receipt (place was too dark to read the fine print) and in any event I had already signed. Will be fun filing the Reason Code 76 complaint now.
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Originally Posted by Isochronous
(Post 29852392)
Just got DCCed at Lavo Jazz Bar in Shenzhen - they had Agricultural Bank of China machines and the DCC was automatic - nothing showed up - you signed on the screen and it was only at the end when the receipt was printed that I noticed after leaving that the DCC verbiage was on the receipt (place was too dark to read the fine print) and in any event I had already signed. Will be fun filing the Reason Code 76 complaint now.
Who is your card issuer? |
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 29852542)
So you signed on some screen and it was only indicating yuan until the receipt had printed? Does the receipt have check boxes?
Who is your card issuer? 2 receipts have check boxes at the bottom but 1 doesn't; in any event the receipt also contains the standard wording saying I've been offered a choice and chosen DCC blah blah. Citi and HSBC. |
This is the unhelpful response I received from Citibank on online banking secure messaging - I think I will just go ahead and file the chargeback and then fight it out formally (https://www.citibank.com.hk/english/...putes-form.pdf and see also https://www.citibank.com.hk/english/...tes-master.pdf - do I really need to call first? I think not):
Ref: XYZ Dear Mr. XXX, Thank you for your message regarding your enquiry on Dynamic Currency Conversion transaction, If overseas ATM cash withdrawals/Point-of-sale debit payment transactions is converted into local currency via dynamic currency conversion (i.e. a service offered at certain ATMs/merchants which allows clients to convert a transaction denominated in a foreign currency to Hong Kong dollars at the point of withdrawal/sale), please note that clients acknowledge that the process of conversion and the exchange rates applied will be determined by the relevant ATM operator/ merchant or dynamic currency conversion service provider, as the case may be and not the Bank. The Bank does not determine whether transactions will be converted into local currency via dynamic currency conversion and, the clients are reminded to Please check with the relevant ATM operator/merchant whether such conversion was effected and the relevant foreign currency exchange rates/handling fee applicable before the transactions are entered into. Settling foreign currency transactions in Hong Kong dollars may involve a cost higher than the foreign currency transaction handling fee. In addition, the transaction will be subject to the following charges based on the converted amount in local currency: (i) An administrative fee of 1.0% levied by VISA if it is a VISA card transaction; or (ii) An administrative fee of 1.0% levied by other card association if it is an international transaction and/or such other rate(s) as may be determined by us or such other network as applicable We appreciate your understanding in this matter. If you have any queries or require further information, please call our Citiphone Banking at 2860 0333. Thank you for banking with us. It is always a pleasure serving you. Yours sincerely, Ivy Liang for Eric Leung Customer Service Manager Citibank (Hong Kong) Limited Dear Mr XXX Thank you for your email of 11 June 2018 regarding our credit card services. We appreciate the opportunity to address your complaint and apologise for any inconvenience you have been caused. Your comments on our services are important. The matter is now under investigation and we will give our reply by 26 June 2018. If our investigation require more time, we will update you on the progress accordingly. In the meantime, if you would like to know more about our complaint handling procedures, please visit our website at hsbc.com.hk and follow the steps below to view the information: 1.Click on ‘Write, call or send a message’ under the ‘Contact HSBC’ session at the bottom of the home page 2.Select ‘Make a complaint’ under the ‘How can we help?’ section on the left side If you have any other points you wish to raise, please do not hesitate to contact me on (852) 2996 6388 extension 6028 or [email protected]. Yours sincerely Phoenix Fung Senior Customer Relations Manager Am I right this is actually the correct Visa doc to cite for Asia/HK? https://www.visa.com.hk/dam/VCOM/dow...les-public.pdf In which case we are not talking about Reason Code 76 but rather Dispute Condition 12.3 |
If overseas ATM cash withdrawals/Point-of-sale debit payment transactions is converted into local currency via dynamic currency conversion (i.e. a service offered at certain ATMs/merchants which allows clients to convert a transaction denominated in a foreign currency to Hong Kong dollars at the point of withdrawal/sale), please note that clients acknowledge that the process of conversion and the exchange rates applied will be determined by the relevant ATM operator/ merchant or dynamic currency conversion service provider, as the case may be and not the Bank. The Bank does not determine whether transactions will be converted into local currency via dynamic currency conversion and, the clients are reminded to Please check with the relevant ATM operator/merchant whether such conversion was effected and the relevant foreign currency exchange rates/handling fee applicable before the transactions are entered into. Settling foreign currency transactions in Hong Kong dollars may involve a cost higher than the foreign currency transaction handling fee. In addition, the transaction will be subject to the following charges based on the converted amount in local currency: |
Just a recent update. Just had this popup in Best buy for my Visa card. Weird thing is it didn't popup for a MC.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...ab62fb81f5.jpg |
Originally Posted by mdbe
(Post 29895254)
Just a recent update. Just had this popup in Best buy for my Visa card. Weird thing is it didn't popup for a MC.
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Just got back from a week in Ireland. Encountered DCC at the vast majority of merchants (hotels, restaurants, gas stations, small shops) but every time was either asked by the cashier if I wanted to pay in Euro or Dollars or I had the chance to press the corresponding button on the keypad. I noticed several of the readers had a second screen after I pressed Euro that asked the merchant to confirm the customer refused the DCC "offer". I didn't have any issues with merchant pushback, I did observe several other Americans selecting to pay in Dollars including at a very expensive hotel, so there's obviously a lot of money in this for the merchants and banks.
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Originally Posted by WheelsFirst
(Post 29968044)
Just got back from a week in Ireland. Encountered DCC at the vast majority of merchants (hotels, restaurants, gas stations, small shops) but every time was either asked by the cashier if I wanted to pay in Euro or Dollars or I had the chance to press the corresponding button on the keypad. I noticed several of the readers had a second screen after I pressed Euro that asked the merchant to confirm the customer refused the DCC "offer". I didn't have any issues with merchant pushback, I did observe several other Americans selecting to pay in Dollars including at a very expensive hotel, so there's obviously a lot of money in this for the merchants and banks.
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Originally Posted by Isochronous
(Post 29981741)
I have generally found it is mostly Americans who like DCC - was in my usual HKG tailor when the man in front of me paying at the cashier was complaining that he had been charged in HKD instead of USD - "of course I want to pay USD!"
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 29981788)
I have observed this as well, which is ironic considering many American credit cards now feature a 0% foreign transaction fee. It's even worse when someone is using a card with a 3% foreign transaction fee and falls for DCC. While their ignorance costs them, what gets me frustrated is this conditions merchants into opting in people as the default.
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Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 29981805)
Could it be because banks and credit unions don't seem to tell their customers about it? I searched for "dcc" in Google just now and it didn't show anything close to the topic of this thread. "DCC card" does, but it's a mix of anti-DCC stuff from blogs and pro-DCC stuff from payment processors.
To think of this another way, read some of the posts from people using their non-USD cards in the US. DCC is all around us, but we rarely see it. I have asked friends using non-USD cards about their experiences, and many chain stores and even a few restaurants offer DCC. I think the reason why it's not been highlighted as a problem in the US is the implementations are relatively benign, at least in the retail setting. All stores that I've seen with DCC have customer facing terminals, and the choice clearly appears on the terminal, like the Best Buy example above. The few times I've witnessed it personally, the cashier appeared to have no input on the DCC offer. It's not like some other parts of the world where you know that the cashiers and/or management have a good idea of what's happening yet steer (or worse force) customers into DCC. |
Just had something strange occur with Paypal. I used a US Visa card through Paypal to pay for a ride in Colombia using Cabify, a Spanish ride-hailing company similar to Uber. I had previously made sure I had selected on Paypal to be charged on my seller's currency (ride price was quoted in COP and invoice was in COP), however I got charged directly in USD when I look at my statement or my Paypal invoice. The weird thing is the exchange rate was ok and almost the same as other transactions made in person in COP. I guess this is not really DCC. Anyone else experience something similar with Paypal?
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 29981945)
To think of this another way, read some of the posts from people using their non-USD cards in the US. DCC is all around us, but we rarely see it. I have asked friends using non-USD cards about their experiences, and many chain stores and even a few restaurants offer DCC. I think the reason why it's not been highlighted as a problem in the US is the implementations are relatively benign, at least in the retail setting. All stores that I've seen with DCC have customer facing terminals, and the choice clearly appears on the terminal, like the Best Buy example above. The few times I've witnessed it personally, the cashier appeared to have no input on the DCC offer. It's not like some other parts of the world where you know that the cashiers and/or management have a good idea of what's happening yet steer (or worse force) customers into DCC.
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Originally Posted by viag8
(Post 29983391)
Just had something strange occur with Paypal. I used a US Visa card through Paypal to pay for a ride in Colombia using Cabify, a Spanish ride-hailing company similar to Uber. I had previously made sure I had selected on Paypal to be charged on my seller's currency (ride price was quoted in COP and invoice was in COP), however I got charged directly in USD when I look at my statement or my Paypal invoice. The weird thing is the exchange rate was ok and almost the same as other transactions made in person in COP. I guess this is not really DCC. Anyone else experience something similar with Paypal?
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Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 29983588)
On that note, I kinda wish Revolut didn't cancel US accounts so I could see how DCC works in the US. At the same time, I'm not sure how useful it'd have been since it was a PIN preferring card (as mentioned in other threads, I've had issues with my other such cards in the past thanks to smaller businesses tending to not have customer accessible terminals).
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Just got duped by a sleezy B&B owner in Ireland. The shame of it is that the B&B was very nice but forced DCC pisses me off.
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Originally Posted by stockmanjr
(Post 29999987)
Just got duped by a sleezy B&B owner in Ireland. The shame of it is that the B&B was very nice but forced DCC pisses me off.
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I would agree. I have asked merchants to reverse the transactions when I don't authorize it to be billed in USD. Usually I am asked but a few times the shopkeepers didn't and billed me in USD. When I explain to them that's a 7% hit (sometimes less, sometimes more) they all say they didn't know that-- which I believe. Global Blue and banks don't exactly train people about their trickery....
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Visa appears to have updated the rule language for disputing transactions involving DCC for transactions processed on or after April 14, 2018.
Check out the Visa Product and Service Rules, Chapter 11, section 11.9.3.1 (page 694 of the document) https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/downlo...les-public.pdf Most chargebacks involving DCC would probably fall under this language: "Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) occurred and the Cardholder did not agree to DCC and did not make an active choice or was refused the choice of paying in the Merchant's local currency." However, of interest is the section following: 11.9.3.2, which indicates under Dispute Rights: "The Dispute applies for the entire Transaction amount." I reside in Hong Kong part of the year and am constantly having restaurants charge me in USD (I use US-based cards with a 0% fee), even though I have specifically checked the box to be charged in HKD on the receipt. I even have the carbon copy of the receipt where it clearly shows that I have checked the box. I'm so tired of this... based on the official Visa language above, does anyone think the US card issuers would honor a chargeback for the entire amount? I haven't tried this yet, but have had success in the past with disputing a partial amount (the DCC mark-up). |
Thank you for posting this link, kaix. ^ Hope this cuts down on forced DCC.
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Originally Posted by Kaix
(Post 30052640)
Visa appears to have updated the rule language for disputing transactions involving DCC for transactions processed on or after April 14, 2018.
Check out the Visa Product and Service Rules, Chapter 11, section 11.9.3.1 (page 694 of the document) https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/downlo...les-public.pdf Most chargebacks involving DCC would probably fall under this language: "Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) occurred and the Cardholder did not agree to DCC and did not make an active choice or was refused the choice of paying in the Merchant's local currency." However, of interest is the section following: 11.9.3.2, which indicates under Dispute Rights: "The Dispute applies for the entire Transaction amount." I reside in Hong Kong part of the year and am constantly having restaurants charge me in USD (I use US-based cards with a 0% fee), even though I have specifically checked the box to be charged in HKD on the receipt. I even have the carbon copy of the receipt where it clearly shows that I have checked the box. I'm so tired of this... based on the official Visa language above, does anyone think the US card issuers would honor a chargeback for the entire amount? I haven't tried this yet, but have had success in the past with disputing a partial amount (the DCC mark-up). The practice pre-dates the 2018 VP&SR change. It's just US banks choosing to discharge their responsibilities to their customers by paying the difference out of their pocket rather than go through the whole Reason Code 76 filing. The rule change changes nothing. |
Originally Posted by Kaix
(Post 30052640)
I reside in Hong Kong part of the year and am constantly having restaurants charge me in USD (I use US-based cards with a 0% fee), even though I have specifically checked the box to be charged in HKD on the receipt. I even have the carbon copy of the receipt where it clearly shows that I have checked the box.
Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 30053011)
It's just US banks choosing to discharge their responsibilities to their customers by paying the difference out of their pocket rather than go through the whole Reason Code 76 filing. The rule change changes nothing.
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