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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 28601743)
AirBnB will ban a customer for a legitimate chargeback? (I agree with no real loss.)
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Originally Posted by say170
(Post 28601519)
Raised a dispute with my issuer for Airbnb.
I should have been charged €787 for a rental which as Mastercard rates was £695.30. Was charged £713. This was despite opening a German account, going via a VPN in Germany. They are obviously detecting the BIN/IIN range and determining the issuing country and charging the home currency (DCC). Let's see what my issuer says. (Disable PayPal's own DCC of course https://www.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/15295 #1) |
Originally Posted by AllieKat
(Post 28602987)
As I said I don't know, but I would expect it with how they behave... thus why I said expect to be, not that he would be, but that he should expect it.
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Originally Posted by say170
(Post 28610898)
I hope not, I haven't taken my holiday yet. If I get there and they've canceled it I will be taking legal action.
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Originally Posted by AllieKat
(Post 28610936)
You disputed the charge for a hotel stay that hasn't yet occurred? Wow... That's daring.
In hindsight, I should have put it on my Amex card and I would have got 2% cashback. This would have covered the charge. |
While looking at my pile of millions at DKB I noticed that they warn users of DCC:
https://www.dkb.de/info/kostenfalle-umrechnung/ ^ |
Thank you for sharing, Majuki ;)
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Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 28598801)
Think that'll work, Paypal seems to centralise a lot in Singapore (work has been looking into opening a merchant account with Paypal for reasons I do not wish to elaborate, and we've been given tax advise to *not* collect it via Singapore. We're going to meet with Paypal Hong Kong to see if that's possible).
Julien |
Originally Posted by generikz
(Post 28661791)
Turned out... DCC FEE again because this time Paypal Singapore is based in... Hong Kong of course!
1. Do you mean a cross-border fee/foreign transaction fee (1% tacked onto your SGD transaction processed outside of Singapore) (I think HSBC Singapore does this) or true DCC (a non-SGD transaction converted into SGD by Paypal)? 2. Where is the Paypal merchant located and what is the original currency of the item you're paying for? |
If this has been dealt with, sorry.
Last week in Iceland I was looking for which key to press to get the charge in ISK when the choice appeared on screen. Clerk had to explain that it was a matter of touching one or the other option directly, no button involved. Usually, we used NFC, but this one transaction seemed to go through as Samsung Pay via swipe slot (had to sign for a $5 coffee even with a PIN card). On a more pleasant note, these days when I warn folks about DCC costing extra, they are often already aware of the need to choose local, not dollars. Folks may not grasp the details, but they get that in the long run they'll end up paying more that way. |
Originally Posted by Points Scrounger
(Post 28667341)
If this has been dealt with, sorry.
Last week in Iceland I was looking for which key to press to get the charge in ISK when the choice appeared on screen. Clerk had to explain that it was a matter of touching one or the other option directly, no button involved. Usually, we used NFC, but this one transaction seemed to go through as Samsung Pay via swipe slot (had to sign for a $5 coffee even with a PIN card). On a more pleasant note, these days when I warn folks about DCC costing extra, they are often already aware of the need to choose local, not dollars. Folks may not grasp the details, but they get that in the long run they'll end up paying more that way. Yes, more and more people are aware of paying in local currency. In fact, some merchants have disabled DCC or select local currency, opting out on the customer's behalf. One merchant in Hong Kong told me, "Don't worry. I always select local currency. The exchange rate is not favorable for the customer," after I had requested HKD if there was an option. |
The "accidental swipe" transaction was the only time we encountered DCC, which was clearly presented on a customer facing terminal giving two prices: ISK 499 or USD 4.80 (made up numbers). None of that red/green, yes/no button stuff.
My mom used her physical card twice at the same store for small NFC purchases. No DCC at all for those or other tapping. I had no DCC on my two chip insertion transactions - ISK defaulted on those. |
Originally Posted by Points Scrounger
(Post 28667591)
The "accidental swipe" transaction was the only time we encountered DCC, which was clearly presented on a customer facing terminal giving two prices: ISK 499 or USD 4.80 (made up numbers). None of that red/green, yes/no button stuff.
My mom used her physical card twice at the same store for small NFC purchases. No DCC at all for those or other tapping. I had no DCC on my two chip insertion transactions - ISK defaulted on those. |
The physical card inserted was a First Tech pin-preferring MC. I clearly recall the "swiped" DCC as I'd forgotten all about DCC until it happened after the first chip transaction.
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Restaurants in Colombia seem to now use DCC, at least paying with Visa. It's Chip + Signature, so you don't really have control over the final choice of currency. It also happened when using Samsung pay. I had to ask them to reverse it multiple times, and ask them to use the local currency whenever they run it again. Only a couple of times did they ask what currency I wanted to charge to be in.
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Originally Posted by say170
(Post 28611257)
I disputed the £18 charge which I paid because they applied DCC. My issuer has to accept the dispute (and they haven't contacted me yet), then it has to go do MasterCard, and they have to review it. By the time that all happens I'll be back home.
In hindsight, I should have put it on my Amex card and I would have got 2% cashback. This would have covered the charge. |
Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 28661837)
Wait:
1. Do you mean a cross-border fee/foreign transaction fee (1% tacked onto your SGD transaction processed outside of Singapore) (I think HSBC Singapore does this) or true DCC (a non-SGD transaction converted into SGD by Paypal)? 2. Where is the Paypal merchant located and what is the original currency of the item you're paying for? eBay Singapore is billing from USA. Paypal Singapore is billing from Hong Kong. But HSBC keeps calling it "DCC FEE" in their statements. Julien |
Originally Posted by generikz
(Post 28672270)
But HSBC keeps calling it "DCC FEE" in their statements.
"DCC FEE" - I railed heavily against Citi HK making a similar conflation https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/21937 #1 . It is lazy, misleading and unhelpful to cardholders. |
The Sun has an article out warning about DCC: https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/42735...uld-almost-50/
Since awareness seems to be increasing, is it possible that most businesses will eventually stop bothering trying to attempt it? |
Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 28711139)
Since awareness seems to be increasing, is it possible that most businesses will eventually stop bothering trying to attempt it?
Tourist traps will remain tourist traps - they don't expect recurring business so there's no fear of retribution from one-time fleecing tourists And so long as Visa doesn't penalise recidivist tourist trap merchants by kicking them out (or even whole acquirers like Global Payments and Bank of China) MC long will DCC reign. |
Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 28711922)
...long will DCC reign.
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Qantas has a DCC option on its Australian site, which is selected by default, when using a non-AUD card. I've included a side-by-side comparison:
http://i.imgur.com/9gHJmo2m.png The DCC price includes the card payment fee, and the listed conversion rate is 3.99%, currently at 0.828 AUD/USD. However, Visa's current exchange rate is 0.794621 AUD/USD, so the DCC spread is more like 4.2%. Opting out is easy, but I imagine the default selection of DCC catches people who are unaware of the option. |
Originally Posted by viag8
(Post 28668677)
Restaurants in Colombia seem to now use DCC, at least paying with Visa. It's Chip + Signature, so you don't really have control over the final choice of currency. It also happened when using Samsung pay. I had to ask them to reverse it multiple times, and ask them to use the local currency whenever they run it again. Only a couple of times did they ask what currency I wanted to charge to be in.
Worse still, contactless is apparently no longer a reliable way to avoid DCC :( |
Originally Posted by AllieKat
(Post 28712311)
This, more than any security or acceptance concern, is why people should be protesting chip and signature.
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 28712413)
What about a couple of posts above where the terminal does the DCC offer after PIN entry? I think getting a chargeback might be more difficult than with chip-and-signature in that scenario.
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Jordan immigration
To enter Jordan you can buy a visa on arrival at the airport, but you must pay in Jordanian dinars. For years the simple scam was to have an ATM and an exchange counter in the immigration area, both of which offered lousy rates.
I guess the government wanted in on the action, so they now take credit cards directly at the immigration counter. The officer refused to let me see the terminal, and I knew he was charging me in USD even though I said, "Charge me in dinars, right?" I never signed the slip but I did get a photo of it. As expected, my copy had the USD choice ticked and indicated a markup of 5.99% on the exchange rate. Should be easy to dispute. Seth |
Originally Posted by sethweinstein
(Post 28763071)
I guess the government wanted in on the action, so they now take credit cards directly at the immigration counter. The officer refused to let me see the terminal, and I knew he was charging me in USD even though I said, "Charge me in dinars, right?" I never signed the slip but I did get a photo of it. As expected, my copy had the USD choice ticked and indicated a markup of 5.99% on the exchange rate. Should be easy to dispute.
That reminds me to check my USD and/or VND cash on hand next month before heading to HCMC next month - visa payments must be cash (I don't have a passport valid for e-visa) |
Originally Posted by sethweinstein
(Post 28763071)
To enter Jordan you can buy a visa on arrival at the airport, but you must pay in Jordanian dinars. For years the simple scam was to have an ATM and an exchange counter in the immigration area, both of which offered lousy rates.
I guess the government wanted in on the action, so they now take credit cards directly at the immigration counter. The officer refused to let me see the terminal, and I knew he was charging me in USD even though I said, "Charge me in dinars, right?" I never signed the slip but I did get a photo of it. As expected, my copy had the USD choice ticked and indicated a markup of 5.99% on the exchange rate. Should be easy to dispute. Seth |
Originally Posted by dmapr
(Post 28763295)
Huh, I was there this May (crossing over from Eilat). They asked if I wanted the charge in dinars or dollars, I said dinars and got charged in dinars, nothing shady. Same thing in a couple of other places, a souvenir store and a restaurant. Used PIN-preferring cards throughout, but the terminals never displayed the amount.
I don't remember any ATM fees at the time, and my friend had 50 dinars prior to arrival, which was sufficient at the time for 2 tourist visas. |
Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 28763152)
If you don't intend to visit Jordan again or don't mind getting SSSSed on your next visit then sure chargeback their xxx.
Quite possible Chase will just issue the credit anyway without following through. But yes, good to think of the consequences. Have a good trip to HCMC! Seth |
Originally Posted by sethweinstein
(Post 28763519)
The guy just had a stack of charge slips. I hardly think they're going to match up the receipt to the name on the passport, and then the passport itself. And by the time I visit Jordan again I will likely have a new passport anyway.
Quite possible Chase will just issue the credit anyway without following through. But yes, good to think of the consequences. Have a good trip to HCMC! Seth Likely Chase would not bother with a Reason Code 76 chargeback and issue a courtesy credit. 6% is a high premium for a credit card payment, especially for a currency that's fixed to the USD. |
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 28764525)
It seems like one way to avoid this is by purchasing the Jordan Pass in advance, which includes the visa fee.
Likely Chase would not bother with a Reason Code 76 chargeback and issue a courtesy credit. 6% is a high premium for a credit card payment, especially for a currency that's fixed to the USD. Didn't even realize USD and JOD were linked -- thanks. Seth |
A very pleasant DCC experience at the Zleep Airport Hotel in Copenhagen. The clerk at the reception has clearly mentioned it from the start, the choice was always mine and he suggested that in most cases it is better to be charged in local currency. Also, it is impossible to proceed with the payment without making a choice first and the choice is very clear (press 1 to be charged $36, press 2 to be charged DKK 198, there's no default). As you can see, the penalty for using DCC is quite steep, so the guy was spot on.
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I could have sworn I told PayPal to not DCC me a long time ago but apparently it forgot all of those settings (and I had to Google to find the non-obvious place in the settings to disable it, too). :rolleyes: If I had not looked at the eBay checkout page closely enough it would have been a 4% markup on top of xe.com's GBP-USD rates.
Originally Posted by emilio911
(Post 27718078)
PayPal and Ebay have now stopped to worry about DCC (see https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/.../920926/page/8 ) . They are now charging people in their home currency without asking. :mad:
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Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 28800088)
On the US site, it's still available if you go to Profile > Payments > My Preapproved Payments > Set Available Funding Sources > Conversion Options. eBay seems to pick this up too as there's no specific setting there that I was able to find. |
Originally Posted by dmapr
(Post 28802176)
Thanks for the tip! So on that page the only thing I have checked is a credit card, yet every time I use Paypal to pay for an eBay item it defaults to the bank account. This page also suggests that these settings apply to "authorized/recurring payments to merchants". Basically I'm wondering if I should be on the lookout for a yet another knob to twist when I'm making one-off payments, any idea?
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Originally Posted by generikz
(Post 28672270)
But HSBC keeps calling it "DCC FEE" in their statements.
Dynamic Currency Conversion Dynamic currency conversion (DCC) is a service offered at selected ATMs located overseas and used by selected merchants and service providers (whether located overseas or online). DCC converts a foreign currency transaction into the currency of a card account at the point of sale. Foreign currency transactions - If your foreign currency card transaction is converted to the currency of the card account via DCC, you acknowledge and agree that the process of conversion and the exchange rates applied will be determined by the relevant ATM operator, merchant or dynamic currency conversion service provider, as the case may be. Transactions in the currency of your card account - If you enter into a transaction in the currency of your card account with a merchant (including online merchants) that routes its payment processing outside Singapore (and in the case of US dollar cards, outside the United States and Singapore), you acknowledge and agree that: (i) this will be treated as a foreign currency transaction by Visa, MasterCard or such other relevant card scheme association (as the case may be); and (ii) that the process of converting the foreign currency transaction to the currency of your card account and the exchange rates applied will be determined by the merchant. In addition, with effect from 22 May 2017, all Dynamic Card Currency transactions described in above will be subject to an additional charge of 1% of the transaction amount, which is imposed by Visa, MasterCard or such other relevant card association (as the case may be). Just bought a DELTA plane ticket in USD, for flight in the USA with my USD Card and... DELTA is pushing its payments in Belgium (to avoid repatriating profits to the USA I suppose) and I had to pay the extra 1% again. I'll simply cancel the card and use Paypal USA... and probably that's what HSBC is secretly hoping for since this USD CC hasn't been offered to new customers for years it seems. Or maybe first thing I should run the question by MAS first to fully close that chapter? That could be interesting. Julien |
Originally Posted by generikz
(Post 28858706)
At least I found the policy online: https://www.hsbc.com.sg/1/PA_ES_Cont...chargestnc.pdf
They just effectively made the USD CC I hold in Singapore useless since I have no way to know where the payment will be processed to reject it or oppose the fee. Just bought a DELTA plane ticket in USD, for flight in the USA with my USD Card and... DELTA is pushing its payments in Belgium (to avoid repatriating profits to the USA I suppose) and I had to pay the extra 1% again. I'll simply cancel the card and use Paypal USA... and probably that's what HSBC is secretly hoping for since this USD CC hasn't been offered to new customers for years it seems. Or maybe first thing I should run the question by MAS first to fully close that chapter? That could be interesting. Julien I consider it very unfair as unlike a foreign exchange fee, a reasonable person can't be expected to know the country the merchant will process their transaction in. |
I have HSBC HK's HKD and USD cards too
We don't have FTF/cross-border/so-called "DCC" fees for now, only foreign currency conversion fees (which the USD cards neatly sidestep) But what happens in SG may find its way to that bank' HK operations:
Originally Posted by generikz
(Post 28858706)
They just effectively made the USD CC I hold in Singapore useless since I have no way to know where the payment will be processed to reject it or oppose the fee.
But that's HK oriented. Not good for USD charging
Originally Posted by generikz
(Post 28858706)
I'll simply cancel the card and use Paypal USA... and probably that's what HSBC is secretly hoping for since this USD CC hasn't been offered to new customers for years it seems.
I'd pick my fights. Besides, unless it'll cost me real money, I'd keep the card just to annoy them.
Originally Posted by generikz
(Post 28858706)
Or maybe first thing I should run the question by MAS first to fully close that chapter? That could be interesting.
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Originally Posted by AllieKat
(Post 28858845)
I consider it very unfair as unlike a foreign exchange fee, a reasonable person can't be expected to know the country the merchant will process their transaction in.
https://i.imgur.com/PRsRYlQm.jpg Qantas did this too, and the transaction shows up as originating in Mascot. Qantas also offered DCC, which I posted about the other month on this thread. A foreign exchange fee is understandable, but part of me thinks issuers moved to foreign transaction fees because 1) they were losing out to DCC and 2) airline websites (and others) were processing dollar denominated transactions internationally. |
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