So wait, if AmEx started allowing DCC two years ago, then wouldn't have we started seeing it more often by now? I know that when I switched my card to the AmEx at checkout from Marriott last month I was still charged in GBP (plus I'm fairly sure the terminal didn't prompt at all).

Yes, I think we would have seen more data points. I've used AmEx at known DCC hotels, and I haven't seen any currency conversion offers. (These are places that will 100% DCC the preauth as well as at checkout, and with AmEx they show local currency only.)

Same with me and the PRC last month, in a hotel with a terminal spitting out exactly the same type of BoC slip as in the wiki, but failing to DCC my Amex.

That was the thing, I didn't think they actually allowed it, just that they were covering their backs.

So, today I dared to dispute. Chase seems to be familiar with DCC:


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...33c334d1a4.png

The FCC link goes to:
So I selected 'Other' and was not offered to add a reason.

Response:
The 1.99US$ is what I calculated the difference to be between what the 305 CNY would have been compared to the 47.95$ that were charged.

Chase paid you that but take it anyway - if issuers like Chase pay these enough, they might put their loafers down Visa's throats to switch off DCC or switch off China.

Yep. I'd take the credit. While Chase eats the loss in this case at the merchant gets away with DCC, it's important that issuers see a complaint whenever there is forced DCC.

I wonder what the threshold is for doing the full Reason Code 76 chargeback? I remember Happy having a similar transaction amount in Dubai earlier this year with Chase that did go the full Reason Code 76 chargeback route. I recall the acquirer and/or merchant tried to push back against the chargeback even though there was no signed customer receipt.

The charge posted as $99.68, so $3.55 was saved (about a 3.56% markup).

As I keep reading this thread, I am now convinced that I will start using my Amex whenever traveling overseas, it is just not worth having to be constantly vigilant. Hopefully, most of the places will accept Amex.

Thanks to all who contribute to this forum.

Amex cherry picks their exchange rates
- can't cherry pick for dirty float/pegged currencies like RMB, HKD, TWD, THB, VND
- can cherry pick for EUR, GBP, AUD, CAD

Pick your poison, really
I used to have a bank AE card that earns 3 miles per US$ overseas but that's now gone

I have Unionpay for places where accepted

can you please explain? Not really following your shorthand.

Cherry pick: https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/3939?page=2 #27

AE: American Express

Sometimes the AmEx rate could be off 1-2% compared to the Visa or MasterCard rates. With UnionPay, the rates are a little higher than Visa or MasterCard (up 0.25% to 0.5%), but one is still ahead compared to the most generous DCC offer. In the case of a USD denominated AmEx, you'd be fine charging in a place like China or Hong Kong because the exchange rate is more or less fixed. A charge in euros or pounds might produce a slightly worse exchange rate (although still ahead of DCC). Some places like Australia have a higher surcharge for AmEx than a Visa or MC. However, I still use AmEx wherever practical overseas. On average, the exchange rates among Visa, MC, and AmEx have been more or less a toss up.

I've never seen Amex rates be meaningfully worse than Visa rates. MasterCard and Discover are almost always tied best and Visa is usually the worst (rarely, Amex can be slightly worse). To me, avoiding DCC matters more than the slight exchange rate difference.

Amex may not be the perfect anti-DCC solution forever. Several years ago they added some language to UK card agreements permitting it, and now I'm seeing rare reports on here that it has actually been seen in the wild. Not enough to be sure, could be multi currency processing, but still.

Is UnionPay worth having? I've thought of opening an ICBC account but their website seems like such a mess...

I agree that avoiding DCC is reason alone to use AmEx, even if the exchange rate is slightly worse. I've found no material difference among the exchange rates over time. While the language was added to UK agreements, I haven't seen any substantiated reports about allowing DCC over the AmEx network. I imagine it's multicurrency processing being mistaken for DCC. Until we start seeing the DCC verbiage on AmEx receipts, I don't think there's cause for concern.

UnionPay is great if you're traveling to China. There's not much utility outside of China/HK/Macau. In terms of acceptance and DCC avoidance in Mainland China, it's the best card option. While Discover works in theory, the switch to EMV broke Discover support in China. Merchants - some of whom were already reluctant to try a Discover card - are not even more reluctant because it requires swiping a Discover card in China. It's just like how I have never had a successful chip transaction with my UnionPay card in the US; every transaction has been fallback. There are also cases now of non-Mainland China UnionPay cards failing in the Mainland China, including HK and US issued UnionPay cards.

Got hit with this in Radisson Delhi Airport, again. Sent an email and demanded I be recharged in rupees, was about a 5% loss

Did they offer a choice upon checkout, or was it back office DCC?

Offered a choice and still charged me in dollars anyway.

Update: Fought with hotel, they charged me in local currency then refunded me in local currency as well. In the end hotel gave me 5000 points to go away, worth about $35.

Thanks for the update!

Just back from India. Seems it is a well versed scam to hit people with DCC. Card is run through the machine, paper comes out, clerk grabs paper and fiddles with it behind the counter, staples it to the receipt, fiddles behind the counter and hands it back in an envelope. I grab it all and head off to the waiting taxi. Only on checking later is the credit card receipt evident with the INR or my local currency (AUD) showing with the "tick the box". The DCC option is not explained to me by the counter clerk inspite of the receipt stating the DCC has been offered. Upon emailing the hotel and complaining, I'm told "you didn't check a box so we automatically charge the DCC amount by policy".

Happened twice in different places. Same fiddling to delay things, same DCC charge. Total loss about (equivalent to) US$50.

DCC is rampant in India, and compliance with the payment network policies is marginal at best. Even if you tell the merchant, half of the time you still get stuck with DCC there. Which hotels were these? You can always file a chargeback with your issuer, but I don't have experience with an Australian card issuer.

It was the Hans Hotel in Delhi (near Barakhambha Metro Station). The other place was a small shop in IXB airport (Bagdogra, West Bengal). My card is a MC from "28 degrees Mastercard". Free Australian issued card, no 3% FX fees but no loyalty points program. They have handled a previous charge-back with clarity, efficiency and enthusiasm. I'll phone about a charge back - thanks.

There was another scam courtesy of the Vodaphone outlet in the middle ring road of Connaught Place, but that's for another time and not related to DCC.

Survived India without DCC last week, but that was because I paid cash at all outlets I previously knew would DCC me. :p

Today I did a weekly rental from Europcar in Munich. While handing my CSR to the agent I said: 'make sure you are charging me in EUR'. Sure enough he read me what pop up he received after swiping the card: 'Ask customer if he agrees to be charged in the currency of the issuing bank using a favorable exchange rate....' It took us a while to figure out whether to answer Y or N to the question. :rolleyes:

Got hit with DCC in Shanghai airport. I disputed the charge with Chase and they gave me a full credit while they investigate. This is the first time they have investigated, normally they will call and credit the difference.

Let us know what transpires. It looks like they have initiated a Reason Code 76 chargeback.

See my post #325 above re PVG DCC. CSR credited me the amount I asked for twice and sent me a letter confirming the credit immediately afterwards. Curious to see what they do in your case when you have disputed the entire amount.

This has recently started happening in the US too. It seems some retailers like J. Crew or Express have updated their Verifone terminals and it pops up a message asking if you want to pay in USD or local currency.

Forever 21 and Kate Spade have it too, but it's easily avoidable as the terminals are in full view of the customer. In fact, the cashier seemed confused when my sister-in-law commented that she wanted to pay in USD. It was almost an expression indicating, "What other currency would you use to pay?" This was in San Francisco, so one would assume the terminals had seen a number of non-USD denominated cards.

I have yet to see a standalone terminal offer DCC in the US. I'm not saying it doesn't exist in these cases, but the only examples I have seen so far have been chain retailers. There were some data points that Olive Garden and a few other chain restaurants had DCC previously, but I believe this is no longer the case. In case of restaurants, I would say that a customer service oriented culture and desire for a tip would make DCC an unlikely outcome.

Standalone terminals are usually used by smaller businesses/restaurants. Since those are more likely to not be accessible to customers in the US, maybe we'll never really see DCC at those places as a result?

A couple standalone terminals at my local drycleaners have it. After they’ve had issues with my pin (i live in the US but most my cards are from Europe) and DCC they spoke with their bank and had both cancelled. Never had the issue in any restaurants before.

Great they got DCC disabled, not so great they got PIN disabled...

Why? It puts the retailer at unnecessary risk of a fraud chargeback. If I had a shop in the US, and I was paying for a full-featured card terminal and the rates involved, I'd be livid if the processor disabled PIN and I'd tell them where to stick it.

Were you able to opt out successfully? My data points in the US are limited because we only have one non-USD card at home. We never use it since there is a currency exchange fee, and the card doesn't accumulate rewards.

Lost/stolen card fraud is already one of the smallest categories (at least for now) and the extra liability shift only applies if the card is PIN-preferring, so I'd say there's very little additional liability risk for most merchants. Anything that would make using the chip more often is still better than, say, forcing fallback, manually entering the card information or even simply declining to run the card entirely.

Of course, ideally everyone would have customer-facing stuff, but barring a significant increase in contactless payment that ship's probably sailed.

The whole 'refusing to run a PIN preferring card' thing would settle down after a bit anyway, just as there were isolated reports of shops that were chip-enabled early on refusing chip cards. Other chip and signature countries like Hong Kong don't refuse PIN cards. They sigh, but they don't refuse them. Possibly drag you up to enter your PIN (happened to me once), but they accept them.

HK also doesn't have the tipping culture that the US does. A few instances of servers getting stiffed due to the terminal prohibiting tip adjust (not saying that this is happening, but per MC rules it is possible) would probably either get restaurants to disable PIN entirely or simply stop accepting such cards. Of course, that becomes less viable the more of those cards that exist.

Alternatively I suppose they could just rerun the transaction and let customers enter the tip on the terminal but I haven't really seen that happening unless it's something already customer-facing.