Confront at hotel? (China)
 

I've been in China a few days and no one seems to be honoring my DCC opt-out preferences. I'm taking pictures of all my signed receipts showing RMB selected.

One was at a Crowne Plaza, where I'm staying. I charged a RMB 188 dinner to my Chase Sapphire Reserve and it posted (it has already posted) with exactly the offered DCC-ed amount of USD 28.77 instead of the correct amount of $27.61. I'll still be there for a few days. Should I try to confront them about it, and if so, how should I go about that?

I know I can contact Chase, but I feel as if I'm going to come back with around 10 receipts that all have to be re-charged.

And speaking of Chase, is there any way to see on the Chase site the conversion details? Most other banks' sites seem to show a charge of, say, $27.61, but then show in the details that it corresponds to RMB 188.

Thanks,
Seth

Hello Seth,

The best option for resolving DCC is when you are still at the merchant. I don't know if getting a reprint of the receipt is possible in Mainland China, but this is a trick one can do in Hong Kong to confirm whether or not there was DCC.

If you hear the line, "Check the box next to RMB, and it will be RMB!" it is almost a certainty that you will be hit with DCC in China. Ask how your currency preference can magically transfer from the signed receipt to the terminal with no further input from the cashier.

The best option at this point is raising the issue with Chase. The choice, of course, is up to you, but I personally would try to fight every one of these charges for a Reason Code 76 changeback. Merchants in Mainland China are among the most non-compliant with DCC in the world. Other locations on the DCC Wall of Shame are Poland and India.

With Chase, there's no way to see the exchange rate until you get the statement. However, it is possible to calculate what the amount should have been. Chase uses the Visa exchange rate on the posting date of the transaction, which you can find here. For example, the Visa USD/CNY exchange rate on June 19th was 0.146865. 188 CNY without DCC would therefore post on June 19th as $27.61.

Chase also uses the Visa exchange rate for the pending amount based on the date of the transaction. Seeing a charge of $28.77 implies that the DCC markup was 4.2%.

I've noticed other issuers, such as AmEx (not subject to DCC) or Fidelity (my card of choice for getting cash overseas) use the transaction date exchange rates. This means that DCC is 100% a worse option since the amount will always be higher than the exchange rate used. In the case of Chase, there could be very limited circumstances where DCC might be favorable, but one would not expect the USD/other currency exchange rate to increase above the DCC spread in a few days. The only example that comes to mind was when the Swiss Franc rapidly appreciated a few years ago.

Ask cashier to reprint (重印 chongyin) "for your RMB record".
But it's likely the PRC cashier can't/won't fix it (especially if you're not a putonghua speaker with a china mobile phone and oondles of time to stand over the cashier) so it's photo slip and chargeback

Thanks for the replies. So I guess they just regularly ignore all signed preferences ticked on the receipts. Well, I'm still at the Crowne Plaza and there are native English speakers on the staff. Is it worth talking to them about it? Tell them that I plan to initiate a chargeback?

I did notice that in Spain the currency option is on the terminal and in China it's on the printed receipt. But I seem to recall it being on the receipt in the UAE and my choice was respected.

If, in the future, I get a reprint, then that forces them to actively put my preference into the terminal, and that's how to have a better shot at compliance?

I do intend to fight all DCC instances, but I feel kinda bad to put Chase through that.

Seth

In china it is national policy to DCC. They have a competing product (unionpay) and they really don't like visa as a company:

Even if the crowne staff are 100% on your side, there may be nothing that can be done. Crazy stuff I and others did to get out of DCC in china:

- run dummy transactions on an expatriate merchant's terminal and discovering there's only a 3 second "whack a mole" window to opt out

- stand over a st Regis receptionist for 30 minutes while she gets the accountant to come back at 11pm and unlock the terminal

- someone had the merchant file a paper "EDC" form to the acquirer to opt out

---

Don't feel bad about causing Chase trouble/financial harm. Maybe chase will sue visa one day over all the reason code 76s it is eating. Until then we can only hope.

This is why you're using the card/Visa network and the protections it provides in the first place. Chargebacks and the issuer's handling them are all built into the cost of doing business.

I agree on the UnionPay comment. They don't want outside entrants.

Here's something interesting I saw on hotels.com last night. Does this mean they actually do DCC? I wonder how bad the rate they use actually is.

http://i.imgur.com/khqicE7l.png?2

EDIT: never mind, it looks like it was mentioned a few months ago.

This is not an instance of DCC, but it's a reminder to be vigilant about which card to use when making an online purchase. Mrs. Majuki wanted to place an online order from Superdry. Now, this appeared to be a US website, but it seemed as though orders were shipping from overseas. She brought it to my attention, and we placed the order using the Chase Sapphire Reserve instead of the Chase Freedom Unlimited. It turns out our guess was correct:

http://i.imgur.com/iZHIM11m.png

Even though the order was pricing on the website in USD natively - no conversion, DCC or otherwise, was taking place - the UK processing of the payment would have resulted in a 3% FTF with the Chase Freedom Unlimited.

Foreign currency fees are bad enough... But foreign transaction fees are ridiculous.

I can somewhat understand a foreign currency fee, but a foreign transaction fee is ridiculous. In the case of foreign currency fees, it's reasonable to assume there is some overhead in converting the currency. However, it's also reasonable to assume that it's under the standard 3% that most Visa/MC branded cards levy.

I've often wondered if the shift from foreign currency fees to foreign transaction fees hasn't been at least in part due the proliferation of DCC.

Ironically, 10 years ago, one might even have been incentivized to take DCC. The DCC offer was around 3% versus your card's 3% foreign currency fee. The card's 3% foreign currency fee wouldn't count towards your rewards whereas the entire amount, including the 3% DCC, would count. With a FTF, it's almost never* in the customer's interest to accept DCC.

* This is assuming there are no wild fluctuations in the exchange rate where the local currency rapidly appreciates. However, depending on the card used, the networks either take the exchange rate at the time of purchase anyway versus the transaction posting date.

I think foreign transaction fee also makes sense. In case of fraud it could be much more difficult to recover money from abroad, also the potential recovery could be more expensive due to language barriers etc. Also, disputes could be more cumbersome, problems with jurisdiction, local regulations. Just this discussion above with customers contesting DCC payments and e.g. Chase Bank absorbing losses shows that foreign transactions are like a customer with lower credit score.

It doesn't cost anymore to recover fraud/chargebacks from abroad. The bank will issue a chargeback, the card network will notify the merchant's bank of the dispute and any response will go back through the card network (be translated) to the issuing bank.

Correct. Any chargebacks will route through the networks. This is identical to a domestic transaction.

It goes back to the original question. If there is a foreign transaction fee, even if it's 0%, when is it ever in the customer's interest to select DCC?

I can envision DCC possibly being better if the cardholder's currency suddenly depreciates against the merchant's. The most recent example of that I can think of is the days immediately after the Brexit vote when GBP fell from near $1.50 to ~$1.30 in a span of about a week. Of course, that scenario is very uncommon/unlikely for citizens of most Western countries.

I might of found a workaround for the DCC . Android Pay. Been using it the past few weeks in Poland with my Chase USA visa and it never asked once if I want to pay in USD instead of PLN. Defaults straight to PLN and these are the same terminals that I was having issues with before.

Yep I suggested this last month http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...l#post28397684, while discussing DCC in Poland

Uptake of contactless here in HK is slow though. And use of Apple Pay/Android Pay is frowned upon as an un-Hongkie practice as all acquirers attempt online verification (dynamic data authorisation) over very slow uplinks (sometimes phone lines).

Ah must of missed it. But that is great to hear. And with the Android Pay, I had no issues with a few hundred PLN (usually 50PLN is the max without a PIN when using the physical card)

Why is contactless uptake low there, out of curiosity?

Also, doesn't this mean that cards from "online only" countries (such as the US) are frowned upon too?

Us consumers love it
It's merchants (or more specifically, merchant staff) who hate Apple Pay/Android Pay

Root causes are Octopus dominance here, banks' reluctance to invest in terminal infrastructure (and perhaps worried about fraud from you-know-where) and pretty poor customer service levels in HK recently
So there's quite often bullying by cashier staff to bully customers into using Octopus, which makes life easy for them

Some of us have taken to writing to head offices https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forum.../18841?page=24 .
My case was my Oliver's Supersandwiches outlet across the street - they added a contactless terminal in April, decided to declare it broken in May and hide it from customer view, and then let customers use it in June *but only if they ask* (it is still hidden from view)

It's interesting because of the great uptake in SIN - on a recent trip, I was able to use it basically everywhere (except for hawker centers). In HK, I always present my phone for Android Pay - I can sometimes see the conflict in the cashier's eyes but usually, they seem resigned and then ask whether it is Visa or MC (I don't even know why this matters for AP because some places don't even ask) and then process it.

Contacless DCC is becoming more common. I have seen it widespread in Spain. The currency choice is made after the card is tapped.

That's scary. Like chip and signature, it removes the chance for the customer to approve the final total.

I believe there was one case of this at ZRH too. At least with a chip-and-signature transaction you can refuse to sign the receipt or mark it as "DCC refused".

That is weird. I haven't used card in Spain in a while (haven't been there in 4 years). I do remember being a moron back in 2009 and allowing the Spanish bank to charge me in GBP for a Euro withdrawal, I bet I ended up getting a really bad exchange rate.

I think this is Visa Europe (PSR-402):

● In the AP, Canada, CEMEA, LAC, and US Regions, statement that the Cardholder has been offered a choice of currencies for payment and expressly agrees to the Transaction Receipt information by marking an “accept” box on the Transaction Receipt
● In the Europe Region, statement, easily visible to the Cardholder, that the Cardholder has been offered a choice of currencies for payment (including the local currency of the Merchant Outlet) and that the currency selected by the Cardholder is the Transaction Currency

I would imagine that a contactless transaction using DCC would be fairly easy to dispute too, no?

If there is a signature waiver or device verified transaction, how would you be able to contest the transaction to voice your dissent? It would be the merchant's word against yours.

At least with a signature receipt you can refuse to sign or deface the "I have been offered a choice of..." wording and write DCC REFUSED! before taking a photo and signing.

There are reports that the Pays successfully dodge DCC but a contactless transaction with a card supporting contactless is still susceptible to DCC. I used Android Pay fairly liberally in Italy along with my CSR and didn't see any DCC, including at the duty free at FCO. For hotels, I used the SPG AmEx, so there wasn't DCC. I tried - and was denied - at Fortnum & Mason LHR that trip the opportunity to use Android Pay, so I couldn't see if I could bypass DCC.

Or better, a simple absence of an accept box on merchant slip is prima facie non-compliance of the merchant.

So I'm a bit worried about Visa Europe rules. But I'm far more worried about my trip routing.

I saw it quite a bit back in January (on a UK issued Mastercard). I was in Spain again last week and only used my new Visa credit card in a Mercadona supermarket. DCC offered after contactless each time.

Usual scenario: two currencies offered on touch screen, GBP in green, EUR in red. Choose EUR, another screen where you have to confirm. Again, green for DCC, red for no DCC.

Fortunately, you are in control of the machine during the whole transaction in Mercadona, since it is fixed to the checkout. The worrying times are when a portable machine is being used.

Was DCC choice on your phone screen or screen of touch terminal? :confused:

The screen of the card terminal.

The phone (at least in the case of Android) only becomes aware of the transaction amount when it receives notification of the authorisation from the cardholder's bank (via the mobile network or wifi).

Actually I came to this forum because I noticed a new worrying trend on transactions performed on my HSBC credit cards in Singapore.

I'm using eBay Singapore and pay a flat S$5 monthly fee (in local currency, on a local CC) to eBay Singapore. I've been billed like for years without any issue.

Now HSBC is adding a 1% DCC FEE on each transaction claiming that it's an international transaction and that I should pay fees on it.

Same for Buyee/Tenso from Japan sending an invoice in USD to my Singapore USD CC: suddenly a brand new DCC FEE on no FX conversion at all is being applied from nowhere.

I claimed these fees back to HSBC and they say that, from now on, any non-local entity billing in the local currency will get DCC FEE'd on top of the normal costs.

DC means conversion right? There's none here.
Are we moving back to a world where you can only use your country currency in your own country??

And of course not a single warning that the bank policy has been updated at no point in time.

Their statement:
Julien

Citi HK has a similar problem conflating DCC with cross-border transaction/foreign transaction in 2014 https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/12797 #1 .

They backtracked somewhat a year later http://www.citibank.com.hk/global_do...-1/pdf/NOA.pdf

But it still confused the heck out of us - even in May 2017 Citi CS (and I, unfortunately) got confused over which definition should apply https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/21937 #1 and #6

Hongkies have penchant for using DCC as a convenient abbreviation for what is better described as a cross-border fee
https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forum.../11968?page=27 #269
https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/12874 #3
https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forum...w/17400?page=3 #24

Citi HK and HSBC SG are both technically wrong
What they described is not DCC - it's better described as foreign transaction, cross-border transaction etc.
However, since they have created their own definition of DCC, we are bound by that definition through using their cards.

LchChester asked what's the difference - especially since some merchants practice multi-currency conversion with surcharge (Airbnb) while some payment processors use multi-currency conversion to offer currency selection on their card-present terminals (Valoot)

I noted in the case of "real" DCC, a currency selection has been offered or should have been offered, and a Reason Code 76/4846 chargeback is available.

It seems that Citi HK does have the ability to distinguish now https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/21937 #8 , so I don't get why banks like HSBC SG have to conflate.

I'm pretty sure Mastercard charges at least 0.8%. Some banks claim it's 1% now.
I'm not that sure Visa is doing it even though some banks claim they are https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/11968 . HKMA has not taken action against those claims for now and I doubt MAS will be any better.

P.S. HSBC HK does not collect cross-border fee. And if they do, they definitely need to give 30 days' notice here as a change of banking T&C.

Thank you for the very details reply/status.

I will try a temporary work-around by moving the billing in SGD to Paypal SG that will ultimately charge it back to the same CC, although from a possibly local entity (Paypal SG).

Same for Buyee, I will only use my Paypal USA account to settle USD invoices from Japan.

I will lose the CC points but I save 1%. HSBC's loss, Paypal's gain.

Julien

Think that'll work, Paypal seems to centralise a lot in Singapore (work has been looking into opening a merchant account with Paypal for reasons I do not wish to elaborate, and we've been given tax advise to *not* collect it via Singapore. We're going to meet with Paypal Hong Kong to see if that's possible).

This happens occasionally in the US too. A familiar case is British Airways. They say they process the transaction out of Florida, and the transaction is in USD natively (no currency conversion is happening), but you'll see a foreign transaction fee if your card has one. :eek:

Yep. I've encountered this a few times when purchasing software licenses online if the company or its payment processor is located outside of the US (e.g. independent software developers that use Paddle to manage their payments). Now I make sure to use a card without foreign transaction fees in those cases.

Raised a dispute with my issuer for Airbnb.

I should have been charged €787 for a rental which as Mastercard rates was £695.30. Was charged £713. This was despite opening a German account, going via a VPN in Germany. They are obviously detecting the BIN/IIN range and determining the issuing country and charging the home currency (DCC).

Let's see what my issuer says.

Expect to be banned from AirBnB. No proof it just seems likely. Seriously it's such a horrible company I see the as no big loss.
.

AirBnB will ban a customer for a legitimate chargeback? (I agree with no real loss.)