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Originally Posted by Some person
(Post 30231270)
or issue a partial refund to your card.
Don't accept. Chargeback once merchant confirms void not possible.
Originally Posted by Some person
(Post 30231270)
Keep in mind that Visa's rules state that the merchant can't place any restrictions on non-DCC transactions which don't also apply to DCC transactions.
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Originally Posted by D582
(Post 30232035)
That’s a Moneris terminal. They only introduced DCC in late 2017. Tap bypasses it. |
Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 30233151)
I found that restaurants and taxis (combining data points from trips to Vancouver in June 2017, November 2017, and most recently September 2018) don't like contactless payments. I've been told the reason is because a tap will bypass the opportunity to enter a gratuity, which did happen one time in a taxi during the June 2017 trip, but I haven't found this to be universal. However, on this trip, every offer to pay via tap at a sit down restaurant (and the above taxi ride) was rejected. I saw no DCC in Victoria in June 2018 with Mrs. Majuki, but we didn't have too many non-tap card transactions (only the Empress Hotel, Butchart Gardens, and Hertz) to compare.
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Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 30232050)
This is a merchant get-out - I had Harrods charge me £50 in HKG and then refund me £50 in HKD while trying to fix it https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/u-k-...-currency.html
Don't accept. Chargeback once merchant confirms void not possible. If the merchant charges £50 in HKD, refunds £50 in HKD and then charges £50 in GBP, then an extra £50 is locked on your card until the refund is posted to your card. This could be a problem if it happens a lot and for large amounts. |
I think I have been DCC'd on an Advanced Purchase at a Hilton-family property in EU. From my credit card statement, it's not clear if I had indeed been DCC'd or just have a crummy exchange rate. Of course, you have no choice given and the only recourse maybe to dispute the charge, but I sort of anticipated this, and the damage is minimal (likely $6, I won't bother). Lesson learned though, use AMEX if this is an option even for an advanced purchase.
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Originally Posted by Some person
(Post 30233444)
If you try to pay £50 but the merchant wants $550 (approximately £4/$40 too much), what I meant was that you could offer the merchant to solve this by giving you back £5 in cash and then skip the chargeback.
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Originally Posted by radiowell
(Post 30261671)
I think I have been DCC'd on an Advanced Purchase at a Hilton-family property in EU. From my credit card statement, it's not clear if I had indeed been DCC'd or just have a crummy exchange rate. Of course, you have no choice given and the only recourse maybe to dispute the charge, but I sort of anticipated this, and the damage is minimal (likely $6, I won't bother). Lesson learned though, use AMEX if this is an option even for an advanced purchase.
More likely to be simple DCC than the more underhanded Multi-Currency Charging Suggest if within 120 days of charging, you stay in the hotel as booked, then chargeback the wrong currency charging (making it clear you're only disputing the currency conversion alone, you are willing to pay the EUR amount) |
Recently I was checking out from the Renaissance in AMS using the app and it asked me if would like to pay in USD instead of EUR... with some blabla about how convinient it is. :rolleyes:
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Wanted to add some datapoints from my latest trip to Europe, using a mix of chip and sig, contactless, chip and pin.
Hotels were prepaid and not chains, so no chance to see DCC in action at checkout. London - No DCC encountered, all charges in GBP without asking. Eurostar to Paris was interesting, prices for onboard refreshments were offered in both GBP and EUR, with an insane markup on EUR (something like 1.5x to 1.75x the GBP price), but no DCC beyond that. Paris - Only one instance of DCC in a high end fashion brand shop. Choice was offered on the pin pad and respected, but nearly a 4% markup on FX if accepted. Spain - DCC is rampant as expected. All restaurants and most shops offered it. When I used my Chip and PIN Target Redcard Mastercard, the currency choice was after the PIN prompt. Markup was generally between 3-4% if accepted. At the restaurants, I always told the waiters to charge in EUR, and the choice was respected. No BS. Same with the shops, offered on the pin pad and choice respected. At El Corte Ingles, using Samsung Pay NFC bypassed DCC, but DCC on regular cards was not forced. Oddly the Barcelona metro and Renfe also offered DCC, first time seeing it in a mass transit system. Overall, not as bad as I was expecting after reading the threads here. |
Originally Posted by restrictonthehanger
(Post 30274982)
At El Corte Ingles, using Samsung Pay NFC bypassed DCC, but DCC on regular cards was not forced.
Oddly the Barcelona metro and Renfe also offered DCC, first time seeing it in a mass transit system. |
Originally Posted by radiowell
(Post 30261671)
and the damage is minimal (likely $6, I won't bother).
Originally Posted by radiowell
(Post 30261671)
Lesson learned though, use AMEX if this is an option even for an advanced purchase.
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Originally Posted by Some person
(Post 30297643)
AMEX has a higher exchange rate markup than most other cards (if paying in foreign currency), so it's better to use some other card.
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Using Amex means suffering cherry picking exchange rates tho https://www.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/17994
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Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 30302085)
Using Amex means suffering cherry picking exchange rates tho
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Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 30302085)
Using Amex means suffering cherry picking exchange rates tho https://www.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/17994
The rate AEEML uses is no more than the highest official rate published by a government agency or the highest interbank rate AEEML identifies from customary banking sources on the conversion date or the prior business day. The exchange rate we use will be: • the rate required by law or customarily used in the territory where the transaction or refund is made, or where this doesn't apply; • based on interbank rates selected from customary industry sources on the business day prior to the processing date. We call this conversion rate the 'American Express Exchange Rate'. |
Originally Posted by Kremmen
(Post 30302632)
The rate AEEML uses is no more than the highest official rate published by a government agency or the highest interbank rate AEEML identifies from customary banking sources on the conversion date or the prior business day.
Our terms are materially similar, but we still get cherry picking. Because those rates are not published like https://usa.visa.com/support/consume...alculator.html or https://www.mastercard.com/global/cu...ion/index.html or http://www.unionpayintl.com/MainServ...exchangeRateEn , it's very hard to prove one way or another. 13. FOREIGN CURRENCY CHARGES If you make a Charge that is submitted to us in a currency other than Hong Kong Dollars, or if we receive a refund in a foreign currency, that Charge or refund will be converted into Hong Kong Dollars. The conversion will take place on the date the Charge or refund is processed by American Express, which may not be the same date on which you made your Charge or refund as it depends on when the Charge or refund was submitted to American Express. This means that the exchange rate used may differ from the rate that is in effect on the date of the Charge or refund. Exchange rate fluctuations can be significant. If the Charge or refund is not in U.S. Dollars, the conversion will be made through U.S. Dollars, by converting the Charge or refund amount into U.S. Dollars and then by converting the U.S. Dollar amount into Hong Kong Dollars. If the Charge or refund is in U.S. Dollars, it will be converted directly into Hong Kong Dollars. Unless a specific rate is either required by applicable law or is used as a matter of local custom or convention in the territory where the Charge or refund is made (in which case we will look to be consistent with that custom or convention), you understand and agree that the American Express treasury system will use conversion rates based on interbank rates that it selects from customary industry sources on the business day prior to the processing date, increased by a single conversion commission of 2%. We call this conversion rate the ‘American Express Exchange Rate’. The American Express Exchange Rate is set each business day. Changes in the rate will be applied immediately and without notice to you. You can find our rates by calling us at the number on the back of your Card. You may sometimes be offered the option to settle foreign currency Charges in Hong Kong Dollars at the point of sale overseas. Such option is a direct arrangement offered by the overseas merchants and not American Express. In such cases, you are reminded to ask the merchants for the foreign currency exchange rates and the percentage of handling fees to be applied before the Charges are entered into since settling foreign currency Charges in Hong Kong dollars may involve a cost higher than the conversion commission. Since a Charge converted via the merchant or other third party, will be submitted to us in Hong Kong Dollars, we will not apply a conversion commission. The amount of any refund of a Charge made in foreign currency will generally differ from the amount of the original Charge because: (i) in most cases, the rate applied to any refund will differ from the original rate applied to the Charge; and (ii) any currency conversion commission charged on the original purchase is not refunded. However, we do not charge an additional currency conversion commission on the refunded amount. |
Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 30302700)
First up, I should put a big caveat on which currencies Amex cherry picks on. Dirty floats like RMB/TWD/THB don't get cherry picked. JPY is also cherry picking-free. It's relatively free-float currency such as AUD/GBP/EUR where this happens. So please do not extrapolate your great JPY/USD rate here.
1) Amex rates on average are better than Visa. 2) Variance in rates from mid-rate for Amex and Visa since start of 2017 are almost identical. (sd=.0034 vs sd=.0032) 3) Variance for AUD, GBP, EUR and THB are similar. (sd(all currencies)=.0034 vs sd (THB transactions)=.0028) None of these things would be true if Amex was cherry-picking bad rates when they can. (Unless Visa is cherry-picking worse rates and doing it more often!) (I don't remember ever using a company in Japan which even accepts Amex, so I'm certainly not including JPY.) increased by a single conversion commission of 2% |
Originally Posted by Kremmen
(Post 30302739)
(I don't remember ever using a company in Japan which even accepts Amex, so I'm certainly not including JPY.)
Originally Posted by Kremmen
(Post 30302739)
That's a much bigger problem than this one!
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Ping An Bank POS Terminals in China
I just had my first experience with forced DCC in China. The merchant's staff don't know how to opt out. The receipt is from Ping An Bank.
Does anyone know how to opt out on the Ping An Bank terminals in China? |
Originally Posted by restrictonthehanger
(Post 30274982)
Wanted to add some datapoints from my latest trip to Europe, using a mix of chip and sig, contactless, chip and pin.
Hotels were prepaid and not chains, so no chance to see DCC in action at checkout. London - No DCC encountered, all charges in GBP without asking. Eurostar to Paris was interesting, prices for onboard refreshments were offered in both GBP and EUR, with an insane markup on EUR (something like 1.5x to 1.75x the GBP price), but no DCC beyond that. Paris - Only one instance of DCC in a high end fashion brand shop. Choice was offered on the pin pad and respected, but nearly a 4% markup on FX if accepted. Spain - DCC is rampant as expected. All restaurants and most shops offered it. When I used my Chip and PIN Target Redcard Mastercard, the currency choice was after the PIN prompt. Markup was generally between 3-4% if accepted. At the restaurants, I always told the waiters to charge in EUR, and the choice was respected. No BS. Same with the shops, offered on the pin pad and choice respected. At El Corte Ingles, using Samsung Pay NFC bypassed DCC, but DCC on regular cards was not forced. Oddly the Barcelona metro and Renfe also offered DCC, first time seeing it in a mass transit system. Overall, not as bad as I was expecting after reading the threads here. and i also ran into a restau in bcn that has dcc many moons ago |
New one for me: a merchant in Spain told me I would be charged a 2% fee for choosing to pay in euros instead of USD. They gave me no choice and selected DCC even after I protested.
Card was a citi MasterCard. I’ll be filing a chargeback when I get home. I believe the merchant bank was Sabadell. |
Originally Posted by txflyer77
(Post 30381825)
New one for me: a merchant in Spain told me I would be charged a 2% fee for choosing to pay in euros instead of USD. They gave me no choice and selected DCC even after I protested.
Card was a citi MasterCard. I’ll be filing a chargeback when I get home. I believe the merchant bank was Sabadell. |
Originally Posted by txflyer77
(Post 30381825)
New one for me: a merchant in Spain told me I would be charged a 2% fee for choosing to pay in euros instead of USD. They gave me no choice and selected DCC even after I protested.
Card was a citi MasterCard. I’ll be filing a chargeback when I get home. I believe the merchant bank was Sabadell. |
Wouldn't that mean that it could be 10x more expensive for a merchant in Poland to accept an American visa card than a Polish one? If so, wouldn't they have come up with ways to block foreign cards by now?
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Originally Posted by Barciur
(Post 30382200)
Wouldn't that mean that it could be 10x more expensive for a merchant in Poland to accept an American visa card than a Polish one? If so, wouldn't they have come up with ways to block foreign cards by now?
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Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 30381945)
Non EU cards aren't subject to the interchange caps, are they? DCC may be a way for some merchants to recoup their costs, albeit anti-consumer.
Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 30382273)
I'm not sure if they're even allowed to block foreign cards by law. I imagine we'd have seen more outright blocks if that were the case.
The recent EU directive banning card fees to consumers also carved out foreign cards. Some of the outfits that used to charge card fees until they got slapped by the EU maintained them for foreign cards--if you book a KLM flight with a European credit card, they obey the law and charge zero, but they get a couple percent if you use an American card. Interestingly I booked a couple SN flights the other day and it asked me for the first 6 digits of my card to calculate the fee... and then charged zero for an American card. |
Originally Posted by der_saeufer
(Post 30384467)
Correct, the cap only applies to EU (well, EEA technically) cards.
It's probably not illegal, but it's almost certainly against the terms of their agreement with Visa and MC. I've seen what appears to be that sort of block with some 3rd-party online payment processors in the Benelux; twice in the last week when trying to use American cards online the processor sent me to VBV, I verified the transaction, and then the processor declined it. In both cases a German card worked fine. My guess is that the processors justify this as a fraud-prevention measure since both online retailers are ones that don't ship outside Europe. Blocking foreign cards in person seems much less justifiable, and the only instance I've seen are some UK unattended fuel pumps, which won't even take other EU countries' cards (I'm not counting situations where only a national-network card is accepted like EC in Germany). The recent EU directive banning card fees to consumers also carved out foreign cards. Some of the outfits that used to charge card fees until they got slapped by the EU maintained them for foreign cards--if you book a KLM flight with a European credit card, they obey the law and charge zero, but they get a couple percent if you use an American card. Interestingly I booked a couple SN flights the other day and it asked me for the first 6 digits of my card to calculate the fee... and then charged zero for an American card. |
Originally Posted by mdbe
(Post 30385133)
I believe not accepting intl cards online is against the merchant agreement as well. The first company I got my car insurance with in the US would not accept the payment with a non-US issued card online or over the phone. I filed a complaint online with Visa and Amex, as well as had my issuing bank reach out to Amex. Lo and behold, received a call a week later apologizing for their "system issues", and the payment was processed promptly. I've yet to encounter another merchant in the US, in Europe or online, that has an issue with an intl issued card.
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AVS can still only verify US/CANADA addresses. I got to sit next to the "card processing manager" for a luxury goods department store on a UA IAD-YYZ. Based on my chat with him, apparently especially the higher end retailers rely more on big data analytics now (https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-pay...ter-1524139200) and that to an extent AVS has become "not so necessary" especially for repeat orders.
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Originally Posted by mdbe
(Post 30386062)
AVS can still only verify US/CANADA addresses. I got to sit next to the "card processing manager" for a luxury goods department store on a UA IAD-YYZ. Based on my chat with him, apparently especially the higher end retailers rely more on big data analytics now (https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-pay...ter-1524139200) and that to an extent AVS has become "not so necessary" especially for repeat orders.
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https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...cb8e6e46eb.png Now this one really ticks me off. Not only do you have to “cancel” to decline DCC, they’re claiming no markup, but it’s a 6% premium over MC’s rate today! |
Originally Posted by txflyer77
(Post 30394787)
They’re claiming no markup, but it’s a 6% premium over MC’s rate today! The November 4th MC rate is 1.145436 USD/EUR, so it means it's over 7% higher! |
Originally Posted by txflyer77
(Post 30394787)
Now this one really ticks me off. Not only do you have to “cancel” to decline DCC, they’re claiming no markup, but it’s a 6% premium over MC’s rate today!
What irks me off more tho is that Mastercard/Visa turn a blind eye on this. Obviously turnover is better than the minority of tourists who take exception to being stinged. |
Originally Posted by txflyer77
(Post 30394787)
Now this one really ticks me off. Not only do you have to “cancel” to decline DCC, they’re claiming no markup, but it’s a 6% premium over MC’s rate today!
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From EU Regulation 2018/302 (applies from 3 December):
Article 5 Non-discrimination for reasons related to payment 1. A trader shall not, within the range of means of payment accepted by the trader, apply, for reasons related to a customer's nationality, place of residence or place of establishment, the location of the payment account, the place of establishment of the payment service provider or the place of issue of the payment instrument within the Union, different conditions for a payment transaction, where: (a) the payment transaction is made through an electronic transaction by credit transfer, direct debit or a card-based payment instrument within the same payment brand and category; Assume that the merchant wishes to offer DCC, allowing the customer to pay in currency ABC instead of XYZ. Is the merchant then bound, by the anti-discrimination clause, to also offer local customers with XYZ-denominated cards a choice between currencies ABC and XYZ, with the same order of preference in on-screen menus? If so, then this regulation might be what finally stops DCC within the EU (at least for EU cardholders) as local customers would be surprised if terminals were to offer payment in dozens of foreign currencies in addition to local currency. |
Originally Posted by Some person
(Post 30419254)
From EU Regulation 2018/302 (applies from 3 December):Let's say that a customer uses a card issued in an EU country and denominated in currency ABC, but that the merchant's local currency is XYZ.
Assume that the merchant wishes to offer DCC, allowing the customer to pay in currency ABC instead of XYZ. Is the merchant then bound, by the anti-discrimination clause, to also offer local customers with XYZ-denominated cards a choice between currencies ABC and XYZ, with the same order of preference in on-screen menus? If so, then this regulation might be what finally stops DCC within the EU (at least for EU cardholders) as local customers would be surprised if terminals were to offer payment in dozens of foreign currencies in addition to local currency. |
Originally Posted by tmiw
(Post 30419274)
From what I'm reading this may only apply to cards issued in the EU. If that's the case, I doubt this regulation will be what kills DCC.
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 30419335)
I don't think the networks are setup to disable DCC selectively. I know that some currencies aren't supported. For instance, if you have a card denominated on Armenian Dram, perhaps it isn't supported. There might be a way to disable DCC based on the issuing country data on the card. You can't blindly exclude certain currencies since there are USD denominated cards from the EU.
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Originally Posted by Majuki
(Post 30419335)
I don't think the networks are setup to disable DCC selectively. I know that some currencies aren't supported. For instance, if you have a card denominated on Armenian Dram, perhaps it isn't supported. There might be a way to disable DCC based on the issuing country data on the card. You can't blindly exclude certain currencies since there are USD denominated cards from the EU.
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The cable car at Santorini in Greece does DCC. (And doesn't accept Amex.)
On the positive side, at least the fee is clearly stated and isn't nearly as bad as some. The DCC fee of 24c on $6.80 comes to 3.53%. I HAVE CHOSEN TO PAY IN USD & UNDERSTAND MY CHOICE OF CURRENCY IS FINAL. THE EXCHANGE RATE IS BASED ON EUROBANK WHOLESALERATE AS OF 28/11 PLUS AN INTERNATIONAL CONVERSION FEE OF 0.24 USD. THIS SERVICE IS PROVIDED BY EUROBANK |
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