Jan 16, 2017, 6:55 am
Last edit by: storewanderer
Older (archived) threads: 2014-16
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- What is EMV contactless?
EMV contactless is a form of contactless/NFC that uses the same security and encryption that is used when inserting a chip card into an EMV-enabled terminal. Other than not having to sign/enter a PIN for smaller transactions, the security is effectively the same as chip and PIN/chip and signature.
In contrast, MSD contactless is an older version that is designed just and only for the United States. This effectively uses much the same flow as a swiped card transaction with the same rules.
- What is CDCVM?
CDCVM stands for Consumer Device Cardholder Verification Method. It's a method of telling the terminal that the customer verified their identity using their mobile device. Terminals that support it will waive the signature/PIN requirement typically in place for larger transactions, potentially saving time at checkout.
More info: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202527
- Does EMV contactless need to be supported to support CDCVM?
Typically, yes. (However, there are some exceptions below.)
- Why can't I tap my foreign-issued contactless card at most places in the US?
This is likely because the store does not support EMV contactless. Foreign issued contactless cards typically do not support MSD contactless since other markets have had EMV for quite some time. In contrast, most stores in the US have yet to get the necessary certifications/software for EMV contactless so they are typically MSD-only--if contactless is enabled at all. (See below for a list of stores where your card will likely work.)
- I paid for a purchase with Apple/Android/Samsung Pay and still had to sign for it.
Most likely, the store in question does not have EMV contactless enabled (see above question). However, there are instances where CDCVM does not work even with EMV contactless enabled. Restaurants that allow tip adjust, for example--where the tip amount is written on a paper receipt and entered by the staff later--cannot support CDCVM. It may simply be a matter of the merchant's processor or the POS software in use not supporting it too.
Another common reason is if you used a US-issued AmEx card with a mobile wallet. AmEx currently does not allow EMV contactless support in mobile wallets for these cards, so they always run as MSD contactless. Because of this, CDCVM is not supported (with very few exceptions, as noted below).
Note: if you used Samsung Pay, you may have paid with MST instead of NFC. Since MST emulates the magnetic pulses that the terminal receives when swiping a regular card, the normal magstripe rules apply.
- How can I tell whether EMV contactless was used?
An easy way to tell if you have Apple Pay is to pay with a Visa or MC while in airplane mode. Wallet will then show a transaction amount next to "Payment" for the card that was used. Alternatively, EMV-related information will typically print on the receipt (AID, etc.) if EMV contactless was used.
(Non-exhaustive) list of EMV contactless supporting merchants in the US:
- 7-Eleven
- 99 Ranch
- Albertsons (Safeway, Vons, Pak N Save, Jewel, Acme, Shaws, Star, Carrs, Randalls, Tom Thumb, Haggen, Eagle, Lucky UT/SoCal)
- Apple Store*
- Athleta
- Auntie Annes Pretzels
- Banana Republic
- Costco Wholesale
- CVS
- DuaneReade*
- El Pollo Loco
- EG Group US (Quik Stop, Kwik Shop, Tom Thumb, Turkey Hill) Note: cashier must press "Electronic Payment" to activate NFC
- Five Below*
- Five Guys
- GAP
- Grocery Outlet*
- Harmon's Grocery
- H&M*
- Jolibee
- Kohl's*
- Lush Cosmetics*
- Maverik
- McDonald's*
- Meijer
- Old Navy
- Panera Bread
- PetSmart
- Ray's Food Place
- Round Table Pizza
- Royal Farms
- Red Ribbon Bakeshop
- Sheetz
- Sherm's Thunderbird Discount Markets Inc.*
- Sprouts
- Staples*
- Starbucks*
- Subway
- Walgreens*
- Weis Markets
- All businesses that use Square and support contactless*
- All businesses that use Clover and support EMV**
- All businesses that use First Data standalone terminals (e.g. FD100+FD35, FD130) with EMV enabled**
* CDCVM support confirmed
** CDCVM support depends on store/restaurant
CDCVM supported in MSD mode
USA contactless credit/debit/transit (2017 - 2021)
Jan 17, 2020, 2:34 pm
#7786
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: HHonors, TrueBlue, Delta SkyMiles, Hyatt Discoverist, Starwood Preferred Guest, American Airlines.
Posts: 2,035
If companies want to data mine, they aren't worth doing business with. If only more people understood that concept.
Jan 17, 2020, 9:39 pm
#7787
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: RDU
Programs: DL(PM), UA(Silver), AA(EXP) Marriott(Ti), HH(Gold), Hertz(PC)
Posts: 2,677
Jan 18, 2020, 7:31 am
#7788
Join Date: Jan 2008
Programs: Rapid Rewards, SkyMiles
Posts: 42
San Diego MTS did an update on their new fare card to replace the Compass card. MTS has decided to do away with the Compass branding and go with Pronto. However, this could change, but it seems that Pronto is the ideal brand and would be purple to blend in both MTS and NCTD. NCTD will be migrating over to the new fare system as well, just that they have their own set of quirks that they need to deal with before implementing this new card. Picture ID's will be available in all 3 types of cards (Adult, Youth, SDM). It will take a transition period to get people accustomed to the new system, but I am cautious as some who have Compass cards tend to have special fare cards. Not to mention the Senior citizens who ride the bus as their only form of transportation and might not be able to or know how to use a computer.
The system will be a fare capping based system and not a product based fare system. Later this year, MTS, NCTD and SANDAG are going to have another fare study done to accommodate this new fare card and determine what the fare capping thresholds are going to be. 30 day passes are likely being cut as it will no longer be necessary due to fare capping. Though you can still buy the equivalent value of a 30 day pass up front, but you will just have to keep riding the bus or light rail until it eventually caps out.
Oh and Mid Coast trolley extension will only work with the new fare cards as there will be no compass card equipment at those new stations. MTS wants people to get off the Compass card ASAP once this transition is completed as the old equipment will be turned off.
I really dig the Pronto name as it is quick and easy. Plus you will no longer have to go to an Albertsons/Vons in order to get your card filled as MTS has signed a deal with a vendor to offer this card in over 300 stores. Possibly 400 stores in the county will be selling this card, so just go anywhere to refill it. No special POS equipment will be necessary to load cards as did the Compass card (equipment is no longer made).
https://www.sdmts.com/sites/default/...da_save_as.pdf
The system will be a fare capping based system and not a product based fare system. Later this year, MTS, NCTD and SANDAG are going to have another fare study done to accommodate this new fare card and determine what the fare capping thresholds are going to be. 30 day passes are likely being cut as it will no longer be necessary due to fare capping. Though you can still buy the equivalent value of a 30 day pass up front, but you will just have to keep riding the bus or light rail until it eventually caps out.
Oh and Mid Coast trolley extension will only work with the new fare cards as there will be no compass card equipment at those new stations. MTS wants people to get off the Compass card ASAP once this transition is completed as the old equipment will be turned off.
I really dig the Pronto name as it is quick and easy. Plus you will no longer have to go to an Albertsons/Vons in order to get your card filled as MTS has signed a deal with a vendor to offer this card in over 300 stores. Possibly 400 stores in the county will be selling this card, so just go anywhere to refill it. No special POS equipment will be necessary to load cards as did the Compass card (equipment is no longer made).
https://www.sdmts.com/sites/default/...da_save_as.pdf
Jan 18, 2020, 9:50 am
#7789
Join Date: May 2005
Location: SEA
Programs: AS; Hyatt Globalist; Hilton Gold; NEXUS
Posts: 980
Costco could do the same thing with the Costco Visa card, though; I even remember seeing the member ID embedded in one when I had a chance to use cardpeek on it. Worst case, they could have implemented the same stuff as the keyfob using the digital membership capacity of the Costco app given that there are also barcode scanners on the pumps. It seems like a waste to spend extra money on something that can only be used at the pump.
That said, if people end up preferring the keyfobs over tapping their phones or cards to pay, then so be it.
That said, if people end up preferring the keyfobs over tapping their phones or cards to pay, then so be it.
That said, I wish Costco would do something similar to Walgreens - allow you to add your membership card to the wallet so you can just tap that on the contactless reader, followed by a tap of your desired method of payment.
Jan 18, 2020, 11:19 am
#7790
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,508
San Diego MTS did an update on their new fare card to replace the Compass card. MTS has decided to do away with the Compass branding and go with Pronto. However, this could change, but it seems that Pronto is the ideal brand and would be purple to blend in both MTS and NCTD. NCTD will be migrating over to the new fare system as well, just that they have their own set of quirks that they need to deal with before implementing this new card. Picture ID's will be available in all 3 types of cards (Adult, Youth, SDM). It will take a transition period to get people accustomed to the new system, but I am cautious as some who have Compass cards tend to have special fare cards. Not to mention the Senior citizens who ride the bus as their only form of transportation and might not be able to or know how to use a computer.
The system will be a fare capping based system and not a product based fare system. Later this year, MTS, NCTD and SANDAG are going to have another fare study done to accommodate this new fare card and determine what the fare capping thresholds are going to be. 30 day passes are likely being cut as it will no longer be necessary due to fare capping. Though you can still buy the equivalent value of a 30 day pass up front, but you will just have to keep riding the bus or light rail until it eventually caps out.
Oh and Mid Coast trolley extension will only work with the new fare cards as there will be no compass card equipment at those new stations. MTS wants people to get off the Compass card ASAP once this transition is completed as the old equipment will be turned off.
I really dig the Pronto name as it is quick and easy. Plus you will no longer have to go to an Albertsons/Vons in order to get your card filled as MTS has signed a deal with a vendor to offer this card in over 300 stores. Possibly 400 stores in the county will be selling this card, so just go anywhere to refill it. No special POS equipment will be necessary to load cards as did the Compass card (equipment is no longer made).
https://www.sdmts.com/sites/default/...da_save_as.pdf
The system will be a fare capping based system and not a product based fare system. Later this year, MTS, NCTD and SANDAG are going to have another fare study done to accommodate this new fare card and determine what the fare capping thresholds are going to be. 30 day passes are likely being cut as it will no longer be necessary due to fare capping. Though you can still buy the equivalent value of a 30 day pass up front, but you will just have to keep riding the bus or light rail until it eventually caps out.
Oh and Mid Coast trolley extension will only work with the new fare cards as there will be no compass card equipment at those new stations. MTS wants people to get off the Compass card ASAP once this transition is completed as the old equipment will be turned off.
I really dig the Pronto name as it is quick and easy. Plus you will no longer have to go to an Albertsons/Vons in order to get your card filled as MTS has signed a deal with a vendor to offer this card in over 300 stores. Possibly 400 stores in the county will be selling this card, so just go anywhere to refill it. No special POS equipment will be necessary to load cards as did the Compass card (equipment is no longer made).
https://www.sdmts.com/sites/default/...da_save_as.pdf
Anyway, if they go to a fare capping system, will there be any catches for contactless credit/debit card users? (Assuming that functionality gets turned on, of course.) In Portland, for instance, only daily capping works with contactless cards; you need Hop to get weekly capping.
Would the member ID be visible in a contactless transaction versus a chip-based one? I have no idea, I'm just curious (I'm not a Costco Visa holder). I do think the QR solution with their app isn't great. It takes time to boot your phone, find and open the app, display the QR code, etc. It's slower than a fob and similar to Kroger's stupid "mobile pay" solution.
That said, I wish Costco would do something similar to Walgreens - allow you to add your membership card to the wallet so you can just tap that on the contactless reader, followed by a tap of your desired method of payment.
That said, I wish Costco would do something similar to Walgreens - allow you to add your membership card to the wallet so you can just tap that on the contactless reader, followed by a tap of your desired method of payment.
As for the app, I don't think it's too bad if the phone is set up properly. The button to show the membership card appears right on opening the app, so if the app is on a favorites or some other screen that appears immediately on unlock, there won't be much tapping/scrolling to get to it. And if your phone has a fingerprint or face scanner, even better. But yeah, one tap loyalty+payment would definitely be nicer.
Jan 18, 2020, 1:41 pm
#7791
Join Date: Oct 2014
Programs: Skymiles
Posts: 3,251
Most importantly, rollout is apparently still on time. ^
Anyway, if they go to a fare capping system, will there be any catches for contactless credit/debit card users? (Assuming that functionality gets turned on, of course.) In Portland, for instance, only daily capping works with contactless cards; you need Hop to get weekly capping.
I saw it on both interfaces. However, that's only on the physical card from what I remember; Apple/Google Pay won't show it.
As for the app, I don't think it's too bad if the phone is set up properly. The button to show the membership card appears right on opening the app, so if the app is on a favorites or some other screen that appears immediately on unlock, there won't be much tapping/scrolling to get to it. And if your phone has a fingerprint or face scanner, even better. But yeah, one tap loyalty+payment would definitely be nicer.
Anyway, if they go to a fare capping system, will there be any catches for contactless credit/debit card users? (Assuming that functionality gets turned on, of course.) In Portland, for instance, only daily capping works with contactless cards; you need Hop to get weekly capping.
I saw it on both interfaces. However, that's only on the physical card from what I remember; Apple/Google Pay won't show it.
As for the app, I don't think it's too bad if the phone is set up properly. The button to show the membership card appears right on opening the app, so if the app is on a favorites or some other screen that appears immediately on unlock, there won't be much tapping/scrolling to get to it. And if your phone has a fingerprint or face scanner, even better. But yeah, one tap loyalty+payment would definitely be nicer.
Jan 18, 2020, 2:02 pm
#7792
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 202
Not sure if this has come up yet, since it's been hit-or-miss in the past, but my IKEA has replaced all terminals with Ingenico Lane/5000s (previous had Verifone mx915s for the main checkouts and FD130s (I think) for the restaurant and grocery portions.
Apple Pay and Google Pay were supported and advertised in the FD130 areas since this location opened, but never consistently worked right on the mx915s (I think I used it once or twice, and all other times "tap" was missing from the language on the terminals).
Now, they're advertising Apple Pay and Google Pay at the main checkouts and it worked as expected with EMV contactless running (at least on the two Mastercards I used).
@tmiw, am I correct that you weren't/aren't a fan of the Verifone mx915/925s? What are your thoughts on their Ingenico counterparts (either the iSC or Lane models)?
Apple Pay and Google Pay were supported and advertised in the FD130 areas since this location opened, but never consistently worked right on the mx915s (I think I used it once or twice, and all other times "tap" was missing from the language on the terminals).
Now, they're advertising Apple Pay and Google Pay at the main checkouts and it worked as expected with EMV contactless running (at least on the two Mastercards I used).
@tmiw, am I correct that you weren't/aren't a fan of the Verifone mx915/925s? What are your thoughts on their Ingenico counterparts (either the iSC or Lane models)?
Jan 18, 2020, 2:27 pm
#7793
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SAN
Posts: 1,171
Anyway, if they go to a fare capping system, will there be any catches for contactless credit/debit card users? (Assuming that functionality gets turned on, of course.) In Portland, for instance, only daily capping works with contactless cards; you need Hop to get weekly capping.
Jan 18, 2020, 4:04 pm
#7794
Join Date: Oct 2014
Programs: Skymiles
Posts: 3,251
Funny you mention Portland. I haven’t read the minutes myself but talking to a buddy of mine who follows these things closely, San Diego is buying an off the shelf system. Specifically, Portland’s. And the system will support NFC credit/debit cards for those who don’t have a Pronto card.
I am just wondering what this costs the city vs. upgrading the existing Compass Card system from Cubic to have Account based....probably a lot of money. New York went with this system. London went with this system. Boston is backing out of this system and going to upgrade their Scheidt and Bachmann system to be account based.
Jan 18, 2020, 4:47 pm
#7795
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,508
@tmiw, am I correct that you weren't/aren't a fan of the Verifone mx915/925s? What are your thoughts on their Ingenico counterparts (either the iSC or Lane models)?
Funny you mention Portland. I havent read the minutes myself but talking to a buddy of mine who follows these things closely, San Diego is buying an off the shelf system. Specifically, Portlands. And the system will support NFC credit/debit cards for those who dont have a Pronto card.
I am just wondering what this costs the city vs. upgrading the existing Compass Card system from Cubic to have Account based....probably a lot of money. New York went with this system. London went with this system. Boston is backing out of this system and going to upgrade their Scheidt and Bachmann system to be account based.
Jan 18, 2020, 5:38 pm
#7796
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: Marriott Titanium Elite/Lifetime Titanium, Delta Platinum Medallion, Hertz #1 Gold
Posts: 724
They just seem generally flaky to me (or at the very least, make it a lot easier for merchants to have flaky setups). There seems to be less opportunity for that to happen with Ingenico terminals.
Yep, they went with the same company Portland uses (INIT). However, I heard that open loop wasn't going to be enabled from the start, just Compass/Pronto (but perhaps that changed since they started work on it).
There was discussion of the various bids in one of the MTS board meetings from a while ago and from what I recall, INIT ended up on the lower end of the range. I also don't think it helped Cubic's case that several other US agencies that tried to go with them ended up with delayed rollouts and various other issues.
Yep, they went with the same company Portland uses (INIT). However, I heard that open loop wasn't going to be enabled from the start, just Compass/Pronto (but perhaps that changed since they started work on it).
There was discussion of the various bids in one of the MTS board meetings from a while ago and from what I recall, INIT ended up on the lower end of the range. I also don't think it helped Cubic's case that several other US agencies that tried to go with them ended up with delayed rollouts and various other issues.
Jan 19, 2020, 1:54 am
#7798
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,508
I think it helps that NYC is basically one price per ride for everyone. Some of the others have a fair number of rules/classes of ticket.
Can you explain offhand what happened with Compass? It seems to work well enough now (sans EMV/contactless support at TVMs, of course), anyway, so at least they managed to fix stuff eventually.
Can you explain offhand what happened with Compass? It seems to work well enough now (sans EMV/contactless support at TVMs, of course), anyway, so at least they managed to fix stuff eventually.
Jan 19, 2020, 10:57 am
#7799
Join Date: Oct 2014
Programs: Skymiles
Posts: 3,251
I think it helps that NYC is basically one price per ride for everyone. Some of the others have a fair number of rules/classes of ticket.
Can you explain offhand what happened with Compass? It seems to work well enough now (sans EMV/contactless support at TVMs, of course), anyway, so at least they managed to fix stuff eventually.
Can you explain offhand what happened with Compass? It seems to work well enough now (sans EMV/contactless support at TVMs, of course), anyway, so at least they managed to fix stuff eventually.
Jan 19, 2020, 11:25 am
#7800
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 452
I went to Giant Food Stores again. Tried tapping Discover via Google Pay - terminals screams "CARD NOT ACCEPTED INSERT CHIP". Tried tapping the same card physically: went through no problem. AID prints on receipt. Did another transaction and tapped my Visa credit card in Google Pay: went through fine, AID printed on receipt. AID didn't used to print, so this is new.
Does that mean they turned EMV contactless on? And I wonder what might be causing the issue with Discover via Google Pay but working fine in physical form.
Does that mean they turned EMV contactless on? And I wonder what might be causing the issue with Discover via Google Pay but working fine in physical form.