scibot

I have not seen that issue before on NCR before and for example Shop N' Save uses Supervalu's NCR ACS system and contactless works very good but no dots show up at all at most locations and the only time they did show up was at that EMV contactless test location. Most NCR places I've visited do not seem to show any nfc dots at all.

Although the nfc dots seem to show up on a few NCR Radiant gas pos at Circle K using contactless MSD and Kum & Go using contactless EMV so in that case msd vs emv doesn't have a bearing on it. I wonder if Speedway is waiting on contactless EMV certs for their NCR Radiant system as well but instead of putting a block on the nfc they just disabled it completely.

I can also confirm that Smashburger accepts contactless with regular NCR UI with "Insert or Swipe Card".

tmiw

Contactless apparently doesn't work at Bass Pro Shops ("use chip reader" error when I attempted). According to the cashier, it stopped working pretty soon after the holidays and they don't know why. Maybe they'll fix it eventually.

I also saw the old Google Wallet logo at Sketchers. Still no chip support, however.

storewanderer

Save Mart uses that same NCR ACS system and the dots show up on the screen there the entire time after you "cancel" their loyalty card prompt (I don't use their loyalty card since it is not tied to pricing and they are a terrible operator with the highest prices in the market where I only do minimal/convenience based shopping). Save Mart processes Contactless very well and I have always had success using it there both at regular checkout (since they tore self checkout out of a couple locations I visit since they do so little business it is rare they have more than one register open) and at self checkout (at their busier locations which still offer it).

Raleys also uses a modified version of that NCR ACS system and their implemention is a little more strange. The dots show up on the screen very very small in the top right corner, but they are just part of the overall screen graphic and do not do anything when you tap. I have had a few errors when trying to use it there, but it always works on the second try.

My favorite for odd implementations is a store called Scolaris, they use an NCR system too and they have Contactless. Dots are on the screen and it says tap/swipe/insert with the Visa/MC NFC graphics. One location has self checkout and 2 of the self checkouts process Chip and 2 of them are still swipe only (???). At least all process Contactless and it always works okay. They only have one location with self checkout now (used to have 3 but closed the other 2) and the weirdest part was that particular location had no EMV at all for about 6 months after the rest of the chain got it, presumably due to their having issues figuring out how to get it to work on the self checkouts.

I shopped Safeway last night and for some reason, no dots on the screen. I figured the NFC would fail. Well, it actually worked despite there being no dots on the pinpad. Then I went to another Safeway and there were no dots on the screen there either. It didn't work at all there. Oh well.

diburning

Not all Save Marts are on the same system. The ones they acquired from Supervalu probably still use the same Supervalu NCR ACS system.

Raley's is an independent retailer who contracts with Supervalu for IT support.

The Supervalu NCR ACS system used to show the dots and it used to show all the logos, but those have since been removed in subsequent EMV updates. The current incarnation of the ACS system has a very nasty flaw. If the customer is an adult who can't follow simple instructions, and pulls their card out of the pin pad too early before the EMV transaction finishes processing, the pending charge results in a hold on the customer's account (which is often Debit, and thus is tied to a checking account) and worse than that, after the customer runs their card a second time, more often than not, both charges post to the customer's account although on the company's end, the company was only paid once. The customers get upset, and even moreso when we tell them that they have to file a dispute with their bank for an unauthorized charge (with our full cooperation). Some banks actually get confused as to why we cooperate with the customer and make matters worse by adding more hassle for the customer. *cough*Capital One 360*cough*

Over 90% of our daily customer complaints are because of this flaw (partially due to the software, partially due to the fact that there is a frighteningly large proportion of adults out there who can't follow simple instruction).

scibot

Yeah typical Toshiba pos system behavior after chip is enabled so that is one reason they really suck. Plus contactless fails at many places because its so buggy at Safeway or Family Fare.
Speaking of Google Wallet scroll down payment types on this page: https://ok7-eleven.com/about/payment-types/Google Wallet is still shown haha.

Haha, its very interesting how all of these places use the NCR ACS system in so many different ways. I thought you have worked with the NCR ACS system and they are removing it but I wonder have you(or was it diburning?) heard of EMV contactless coming to it or not since they are ripping it out for a Toshiba a verified pile of junk at Safeway/Albertsons/Family Fare.

Here is a lot of NCR places: https://imgur.com/sQBNhl4 that message is very common and no nfc dots at all. Just like diburning has said no dots on the newer updates. Although diburning I've seen Shop N' Save testing EMV contactless on the NCR SuperValu ACS system but self checkouts were not working and the dots were once again showing. Here: https://imgur.com/BddTgAh is the receipts from the regular system and the EMV contactless test locations.

diburning

I haven't heard anything, but they're most likely not going to roll out anything major until the whole company has converted to the Toshiba SurePOS 4690 system just in case it breaks something. This will take until October or so (two more divisions to go)

Disclosure: I am a temporary hardware technician for the conversion process.

tmiw

Sounds like Bass Pro Shops might not have gotten EMV until recently, then? I almost never go there so I don't know for sure.

cjw2001

There is a big difference between posted charges and pending authorizations. Are you saying there are two pending authorizations (one of which will simply time out after several days) or that there are two completed charges after final posting? I find it hard to believe that it would be the latter. If it is the former there is nothing to dispute.

Points Scrounger

At my local Safeway, some terminals have functioning NFC, and some don't. Staff consider this par for the course with Safeway and anything IT-related.

storewanderer

Interesting, I did not know Raleys contracted with Supervalu. Their system is a little different from the others. I have not seen a system identical to theirs anywhere else but it is definitely the NCR ACS in some form.

All of the Save Marts use the same NCR ACS System, now. The stores they bought from Albertsons were, at that time under Albertsons, on an IBM System (mostly with NCR Dynakey hardware but a few did have the traditional keyboards identical to the set up Kroger still uses to this day) and Save Mart at the Dynakey stores kept the old hardware but moved them to NCR Software immediately upon store conversion. Oddly they did replace the printers during the conversion process but kept the rest of the old hardware. Since then, Save Mart has slowly been replacing hardware but it has been a hodgepodge approach. For instance, some stores have black keyboards (replaced) and some still have white/beige ones (those are the old Albertsons equipments and by this point I don't think there is much of it left). One store in my area got all new screens which are very wide and look great, another store has 3 different models of screens, one of which is so small and blurry my theory is they went to the Staples down the parking lot to buy that particular screen.

I expect Save Mart will be EMV Contactless soon based on the speed at which they have rolled out other updates (Chip came pretty quick, Quick Chip also came pretty quick, etc.). I wonder if Supervalu handles their IT too?

Regarding the issue you describe with double transactions if the card is removed early, I have encountered similar behavior at Wal Mart and Kroger when I have removed my card too early. Two transactions post however, then, a refund shows up. I do believe Quick Chip prevents this issue since if the card is removed too early, it will fail to process.

It will be interesting to see how things go here when gas pumps enable EMV. The pumps in Canada "lock" the card in when you do EMV and you can't pull it out while it is reading. Maybe the pinpads needed the same design.

tmiw

Software just needs to handle it better. If the slot locked, someone would likely end up breaking it by pulling the card out too hard before it was allowed.

As for gas pumps, I don't think all of the currently installed EMV capable readers in the US support that. At least not obviously, anyway.

reclusive46

Lol only in the US would merchants be concerned at someone yanking their card out and breaking the terminal. I'm pretty sure if you pull hard enough they just release.

Some terminals in Europe also use the card locking .

tmiw

Honestly, I'm not sure if they would be concerned about that. It's probably just as likely, if not more so, that they just went for the least expensive terminals possible.

Anyway, tapping my Diners Club MC failed at JCPenney today. Supposedly Apple Pay etc. work though so...

Points Scrounger

Chase ATM slots are locked during a transaction. Before a yanker would "break" the terminal, it would dawn on them it was supposed to be that way. You can't pull out a Chase card, using regular force anyway. ​​​​​

diburning

Some of the independent retailers that Supervalu services are Cub Foods franchises, Coborn's, Raley's, and Neiman's Family Markets. I got this list from calling the Supervalu IT Service Desk where they have a phone tree option that lists all of those retailers plus "All other independent retailers" so the list is probably incomplete.

The latter. Both charges would post, but on the company's (Albertsons) end it will only show one transaction and one cancelled one. It's possible that it's a quirk of Retalix.

If it does automatically refund, then it's not doing it in a timely manner because some of these complaints drag out for weeks between the customer, the bank, and the company's terrible outsourced front line customer service call center. The majority of customers that use a debit card instead of a credit card are those where every penny counts, and they can't afford to sit and wait for a refund. Those who use credit cards and are double charged due to pulling their card out too soon will contact customer service just once to do their due diligence before contacting their credit card company to fix.

I'll admit that I did do it once myself, when I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing, on a pin pad where contactless wasn't functioning, so I was charged twice, but Amex could tell it was a double charge and the second pending charge never posted.