I know I must sound like a fool, but what is the difference between a thermal and carbon slip? Is the carbon one just given after the transaction?

Has anyone encountered DCC here? I mean with foreigners since we have USD denominated cards.

I'm doing well so far... DFS and MTR transactions posted at $34.82 and $20.63 respectively, which matches the Visa rates. Based on the way the MTR transaction went, I am fairly confident Francfranc will post without DCC too. I'm still waiting on Taiwan HSR (no DCC) and Novotel (opted out of DCC) to post from last week as well.

My spouse and I went to Disneyland Hong Kong today, and I decided to use my Chase Sapphire Preferred knowing that I'd be gearing up for a battle. The POS system did not disappoint as I saw the carbon copy print out:

http://i.imgur.com/j9QjcxQm.jpg

The exchange was as follows:

Me: I want to be charged HKD.
Cashier: Here... ::circles HKD:: Hong Kong Dollars
Me: I sign and then what happens? How do I make sure it's HKD
Cashier: If you circle HKD you get Hong Kong Dollars
Me: Do you press a button to make sure I get Hong Kong Dollars?

The cashier at this point handed me the thermal slip:

http://i.imgur.com/6xTS9AKm.jpg

The thermal slip didn't contain any mention of DCC, USD, or an exchange rate. It's denominated in HKD, and the trace code is one higher than the carbon copy slip. This gave me enough reassurance that the [X]HKD was in the system, but all too often we've heard the case with carbon copy slips that your manual tick on the box just goes into a black hole, and the only time it would be consulted would be during a chargeback.

We had dinner at Maxim's, and I have to admit that I copped out and paid with AmEx to avoid my wife rolling her eyes:

http://i.imgur.com/ZJEKPG6m.jpg

I'll look at the exchange rate once the transaction posts to see how AmEx's rate compares to Visa's. I'd imagine for HKD that the rates would be about the same since the HKD:USD is pegged to a narrow band.

See my post (post 1188) above with references to carbon copy and thermal slip. A carbon copy receipt contains two or more sheets of paper. A dot matrix printer prints up the receipt on the top copy (merchant copy), and this is duplicated on the bottom copy (customer copy). Likewise, when you sign the merchant copy, a copy of your signature is automatically imprinted on the customer copy below.

A thermal slip is the one we're used to seeing in the US. It's called a thermal slip because the white paper will turn black when exposed to heat. Most new point of sale terminals use thermal paper. However, in Hong Kong carbon copy slips are far more prevalent. The good thing for us with carbon copy slips is that your currency choice is abundantly clear and provides rock solid evidence if your issuer pursues a Reason Code 76 chargeback.

It happens but with far, far less frequency. Most of us have USD denominated cards, so you're right... we won't see DCC. The only time I've seen it mentioned has been at DFS stores, which all seem to use similar style payment terminals. There was also a case of a gentleman from Saudi Arabia renting a car through Avis in Florida who got billed in Riyals rather than USD. In his case, it was frustrating because the exchange rate is fixed. It's just like here in HK where there is no reason on earth why you need to lock in the (poor) exchange rate.

I have a few theories on why DCC is rare in the US. The first is the market size. The US has hundreds of millions of cardholders with USD denominated cards. These far outweigh the non-USD denominated cards. While cards denominated in the local currency very likely comprise the vast majority of cards in a particular area, I would venture a guess that the number of non-HKD denominated cards both in absolute numbers as well as as a percentage of the all credit card holders currently in HK is higher than in even a place like NYC. So, I don't think that even with DCC in the US that it would ensnare many people.

Second, the US is an extremely litigious society. Do you think some of these non-compliant acquirers/merchants would survive a class action lawsuit from thousands of angry cardholders whose currency choices weren't respected? DCC is scammy and deceptive in how it's implemented in every case I've seen, even when I've been given a clear choice. Eventually, we would need big bold letters indicating exactly the percentage of the DCC markup just like we need calorie counts on menus or warning labels to let us know our coffee is hot.

Third, I've heard the argument that DCC is mostly something that sprout up in response to consumer demand, namely from American cardholders when traveling overseas. Some Americans demand to know how much an item costs in "real money" or wonder why they can't pay in dollars everywhere they go. DCC allows them to do this, and by all means I'm for merchants making a slight profit off of these types. The problem is that there is a lot of collateral damage. Most Americans I've met abroad do not fall into the ugly American stereotype. However, unless you're like the few of us on this thread, you probably won't know how to opt out of DCC or realize you've been struck.

I would be surprised if many merchants in the US support DCC, but what we really need to do is get reports from people who've tried their cards at the you-name-it big box retailers, restaurants, and department stores. I'm really curious to know if Macy's, Bloomingdale's, Nordstrom and the like have DCC.

From my experience with AMEX is that only US domestic authorizations show as "pending" & foreign transactions only show after they have posted.

Hong Kong Disney used to have info screen of the POS hanging onto the glass so you see your options "USD" and "HKD" and even their final amounts.

Not anymore?

I didn't see any display screen like at DFS or some other stores where the cashier will point to the screen and you choose. In those cases, I've never seen the DCC verbiage on my receipt, and the non-DCC amount has been held.

The way it works now is they give you a carbon copy slip with the rate printed on that slip. I don't like these carbon copy slips because you don't know what happens after the fact. As we've seen in the cases of Greyound Cafe and Coyote Bar in Hong Kong, the cashier just files away the merchant copy of the receipt, but there is no further input on the part of the cashier to select the currency. I have been taught to be extremely skeptical that my currency choice will be honored when I see the boxes on a carbon copy receipt. In this case the card terminal seems integrated with the register, and the trace number was higher for the detailed receipt. This detailed receipt only showed a HKD amount, so I have reason to believe I have been opted out successfully.



More transactions posted...

TW Transactions:

1) Taiwan HSR (no DCC) posted at $38.82:

1180 TWD x 0.032902 USD/TWD = 38.82 USD

2) Novotel Taoyuan (DCC opt out) posted at $217.88:

6622 TWD x 0.032902 USD/TWD = 217.88 USD

228.17 USD - 217.88 USD = 10.29 USD saved by not using DCC

And this concludes another DCC-free trip to Taiwan... terminals are still fully compliant, and cashiers respect DCC choices. ^

HK Transactions:

3) Francfranc (DCC opt out) posted at $218.12:

1691.50 HKD x 0.128948 USD/HKD = 218.12 USD

229.00 USD - 218.12 USD = 10.88 USD saved by not using DCC

I did suggest (to majuki I think) banks may eventually respond to this by issuing multi-currency cards to try recapture the DCC profit.

Actually after reading ausbt.com.au I realised Commonwealth Bank of Australia has been doing this for some time https://www.commbank.com.au/personal...ard.html...but the rates on that product are so toxic https://service.commbank.com.au/tool...alculator.aspx it might be simpler to just accept DCC than use that product.

Don't even get me started on Commonwealth Bank. We had to send an International Money Transfer (wire) from my sister-in-law's account to our bank stateside, and I cringed at the loss on the transfer in terms of percentage and dollar value. It didn't help that we waited until June to do the transfer rather back when the AUD was stronger compared to the USD. My sample size for international wire transfers is small, but in comparison the Bank of Taiwan has a great USD sell rate that's on par with the FX rate, and the only fee is the 400 TWD transfer fee (<$15 US).

It's also likely that banks will move to foreign transaction fees rather than currency exchange fees much like US banks have. Even if you accept DCC it doesn't matter. You're getting smacked with a 1-3% FTF on cards that have one in addition to the poor DCC rate.

https://www.commbank.com.au/personal...s-charges.html

International Transaction5 :
Transactions converted by MasterCard® or Visa (5): 3.00%
Transactions converted by American Express® (5) : 2.00%
Transactions overseas but in Australian dollars(6): 2.00%

The fees are only 1% apart.
It's just whether you like to be scalped by Commbank or scalped by Global Payments and its ilk.

I happily pay for my mates when they are here or when we're travelling around Asia. They then credit my Australian NAB/HSBC accounts at the Yahoo mid-rate. I spend down the Aussies when the missus and I visit down under (it costs us a fair bit to convert into Aussies too)

Have we ever seen a DCC scalp at 1%? In most cases you're paying the 2% + 4-5% DCC scalp. At least they're more generous. US issuers typically bill you the 3% regardless of whether or not Visa/MC performs the exchange.

For HKD, Commbank is currently offering 6.4646 for their Travel Money Card. Yahoo rate is currently 6.801 (5% less). Choose your poison.

My spouse says I should just apply for a HK bank account and credit card. :D If I'm not feeling like a fight I just use AmEx. If that option ever goes away I don't know what I'll do.

Banks here will accept your overseas passport and (mailed) overseas residential address proof, but you have to get money here and keep the account active through use.

Alright, I think I successfully dodged DCC in HK with an honorable mention to percysmith to assisting me at Greyhound Cafe. While we weren't able to get out of DCC there, he helped me void the sale, which in turn avoided DCC.

I still have two pending transactions, the one from Disneyland and a second transaction from today at Franc Franc. Fortunately, I know how the Franc Franc transaction will play out based on experience. I'm hopeful that Disneyland will be without DCC too.

I had an interesting experience upon checkout at the Courtyard on Hong Kong Island. The BoC terminal that they use will not print the DCC verbiage nor hold the DCC amount for a PREAUTH. The carbon copy receipt I signed was denominated in HKD, but I was so fixated on looking for the DCC verbiage and the transaction amount that I failed to notice that the transaction was HK$9298 whereas my bill was HK$9295. Not wanting a back office reconciliation that resulted in DCC, I returned to the front desk and got them to void the first sale. I had them rerun the transaction (again in HKD) for the correct amount of HK$9295. I will post receipts when I get home and have access to my scanner. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying my last 30 mintues at the Wing CX lounge at HKG.

With the help of percysmith, moondog, cxua, and I will be following up with the non-compliant Global Payments terminal to see if we can't get the situation rectified.

Thanks again to percysmith for your help at Greyhound Cafe. ^

Also, the Disneyland Maxim Palace receipt posted. They used a rate of 0.128907 for 10/13. Visa's HKD:USD rate for 10/13 was 0.128948. AmEx's rate is 0.032% lower than Visa's for this transaction, but I would consider them to be practically the same. However, I recognize that this is a) only one data point and b) for a currency fixed to the USD within a narrow exchange rate.