Sep 20, 2013, 11:40 am
Last edit by: philemer
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-card-programs/1739359-2016-onward-usa-emv-cards-availability-q-chip-pin-signature.html
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
Jan 2, 2013, 11:44 pm
#631
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
I believed that mc/visa policies were world wide when it came to such things as surcharges (which both prohibited in theory in their operating manual) and minimum purchases....till I got into a verbal spat at a subway sandwich shoppe in London when I bought a 6 inch sandwich for £2.25 or something like that and seeing the decals for mc/visa offered my visa rewards card (can't lose that 4p now can I) and was laughed at. Everybody knows you don't use a credit card for less than 5 quid I was told. I reached into my wallet and pulled out the visa regulation prohibiting minimum purchase requirements and was told this does not apply in the UK. After I told him I don't carry that kind of cash, he grudgingly took the card (I said to him I wouldn't have bought the sandwich if there had been a sign indicating a 5 quid minimum for use of a credit card) and since the sandwich had already been prepared to my specs, I suppose it wasn't worth the hassle to him. In any event, I did some checking and sure enough, UK law prohibits credit card companies from prhobiting minimum purchase requirements and that indeed somewhere it is noted in both the mc and visa so called worldwide operaitng manuals that local law will prevail when it is in conflict with their US procedures. (Of course we all know that thanks to the Durbin amendments to the banking bills, the two wonderful consumer protectons of mc and visa i.e. that no surcharges are allowed (although cash discounts are and I'm still waiting for somebody to explain the difference especially when it comes to the petrol stations in the USA where while surcharges are now allowed, 10 states do prohibit them including NY where I live) and no minimum purchase requirements are allowed (this law allows merchants to set minimum purchase amounts at less than $10. Large stores such as Walmart, Target and most grocery chains do not but many stores now do although in most cases there is a sign explaining this at the till).
So that prompted my question. For example, eu law might allow merchants not to accept emv cards if there is no pin. Don't know this for a fact.
So that prompted my question. For example, eu law might allow merchants not to accept emv cards if there is no pin. Don't know this for a fact.
Jan 3, 2013, 12:58 am
#632
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
If it's between you the American with the mag-stripe card versus the French SNCF which rakes in millions of Euros in transactions per year from European Chip-and-PIN VISA and MC cardholders, do you think VISA and MC is going to cut off their relationship with SNCF for the sake of comparatively small minority of Americans who can't buy French rail tickets at the kiosk?
The common answers from VISA and MC up to most recent years was simply: "sucks to be you, use cash instead. (you're a nobody, SNCF is a somebody)"
Then it changed to a more softer tone of "well it's the banks fault, we tried to promote the EMV chip to the US, but they didn't want to."
Now they finally got off their butts and came back with a carrot-and-stick incentive: "everyone needs to move to EMV and if they don't they'll be liable for all the fraud charges."
Jan 3, 2013, 9:22 am
#633
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1
USA EMV cards available today (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature).
I just came back from Germany and I had problems using the Citi Thankyou Premier chip/sig at the S-bahn and U-bahn kiosks. Tried a few times but the readers kept rejecting it. Went to cash after that. No problem at stores with cashiers though.
Jan 3, 2013, 10:14 am
#634
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New York, NY
Programs: Hilton, Hyatt, Marriott
Posts: 241
There have been some other reports of ATM PIN's working in some POS machines. It's difficult to know what happens in these incidents. In circumstances where "offline" authorization is used the PIN must be stored in the chip itself, and the PIN can only be set or changed in a device which is able to write to the chip, typically an ATM. However, in circumstances where "online" verification is used the PIN is used differently (think of debit cards in the USA). I don't suppose you also tried a card without a chip?
My partner tried to use his BankAmericard Chip&Sign and when it asked for a PIN, he entered his Cash Advance PIN and it was declined each time.
We both used our cards for other purchases that defaulted to signature without issue.
There's probably some difference in the way Citi and BofA programmed their cards where Citi works with Cash Advance PIN and coded as a purchase while BofA just outright rejects it.
Jan 3, 2013, 11:24 am
#635
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Perhaps there's some upgraded aspect with cards that have the smaller chip?
Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 3, 2013 at 11:32 am
Jan 3, 2013, 12:15 pm
#636
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bay Area
Programs: DL SM, UA MP.
Posts: 12,729
Disappointed to hear about the Penfed cards, but not surprise it is like SDFCU and Andrews though.
Which financial institution will be the first to step up with a true Chip and PIN card? The way it is going, everyone will issue Chip and Signature cards first and maybe (if ever) issue Chip and Pin.
Which financial institution will be the first to step up with a true Chip and PIN card? The way it is going, everyone will issue Chip and Signature cards first and maybe (if ever) issue Chip and Pin.
I had luck with Trenitalia kiosks (probably because the value of the transactions were only about 5 Euro each way) but otherwise, we will have to use cash and/or wait in line.
Jan 3, 2013, 12:27 pm
#637
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
It seems like until they can completely eradicate the mag stripe, which means all the readers in the US have to be replaced with ones capable of reading EMV or NFC or Bluetooth 4.0, we're going to be in this gray area and Americans will be screwed as far as unattended transactions.
And, it's always a good idea to keep older technology for backwards compatibility. Though old and outdated, payment via carbon copy imprinters has its positives that it can be done without electricity or connection to the internet which can be of great use in emergencies like the Tohoku Earthquake in Japan or Hurricane Sandy in the US.
Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 3, 2013 at 12:36 pm
Jan 3, 2013, 1:07 pm
#638
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
That may be what Visa and MasterCard say, but you may have difficulty making that stick in a live, on-the-spot transaction with a sales clerk, where you may or may not speak each others' language. And even if you CAN communicate with them, they (or their manager, if one is available) may still say no. What then? Are you going to call Visa or MasterCard on your cell phone and spend God knows how long arguing with them, the merchant, etc.?
And as I said, no not only is there a EU policy allowing PIN only transactions, the merchants are WRONG if they believe a signed-for transaction puts them at greater chargeback risk, it doesn't. EMV is EMV for that purpose.
As for unattended kiosks, that's different, they TECHNICALLY can't complete the transaction (no way to verify cardholder without PIN since no human to check signatures), so I believe Visa/MC allow that just fine.
Jan 3, 2013, 1:58 pm
#639
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: home = LAX
Posts: 25,934
I've been told that the signature is primarly to use if you later dispute whether it was you who made the purchase. (I was told that when I mentioned to a store clerk that the electronic stylus was creating garbage out of my attempt to sign, and they told me to just go ahead and ok it!)
Having said that, if there is a human there, if the store wishes, they can ask to see the back of the card and then check the signature. But even most clerrks who ask for the back of the card don't hold the card until you've signed and then compare the signatures side by side. They just glance at it, and how much a signature verification can they really do afterwards? I've never worked retail, but I doubt most checkout clerks are trained in comparing signatures for validity!
I'd bet it'd be easier, in fact, to train an automated kiosk, with a means to imput your signature, to judge the likely validity of it, than for the average checkout clerk to judge that.
Jan 3, 2013, 2:06 pm
#640
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Actually, the signature is not primarly for a human to check (at the checkout), and that becomes obvious when most merchants never ask to see the back of your card. Furthermore, there are now some self-service kiosks in the US (including at Kroger-owned Ralph's grocery stores in Southern California) where you sign using a stylus on an electronic screen, and no human ever looks at how you signed in most cases.
If anything, signature verification is also a vestigial remnant when graphology was considered solid science and credit cards were used for larger purchases or upscale restaurants back in the day.
It really has no meaning today when one can buy a 2 liter bottle of Dr. Pepper at Walgreens or a Big Mac meal at McDonald's with a credit or debit card. Places with minimum wage earning cashiers with high volume of customers in a fast paced environment, they are not going to spend 10 seconds per customer checking the back of the card for the sake of $0.99 bottle of Dr. Pepper or a $4.99 for a Big Mac Meal.
When I swipe my credit card at CVS Pharmacy, all I make is a simple dash. Clerks are not trained professionals in counterfeit signatures nor are the corporations going to introduce a "how to detect counterfeit signature program" for their $7.25/hr earners nor will cashiers be spending 10 seconds looking at the back of your card to see if the signature matches stroke per stroke. All they care is getting through the line as quickly as possible.
If anything, credit and debit cards today have transformed us into nearing a cash free society where people move along faster without digging deep in your pockets looking for that extra penny or nickel when the cash register display shows $4.34 for a bag of Doritos.
Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 3, 2013 at 2:18 pm
Jan 3, 2013, 2:48 pm
#641
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Correct.
If anything, signature verification is also a vestigial remnant when graphology was considered solid science and credit cards were used for larger purchases or upscale restaurants back in the day.
It really has no meaning today when one can buy a 2 liter bottle of Dr. Pepper at Walgreens or a Big Mac meal at McDonald's with a credit or debit card. Places with minimum wage earning cashiers with high volume of customers in a fast paced environment, they are not going to spend 10 seconds per customer checking the back of the card for the sake of $0.99 bottle of Dr. Pepper or a $4.99 for a Big Mac Meal.
When I swipe my credit card at CVS Pharmacy, all I make is a simple dash. Clerks are not trained professionals in counterfeit signatures nor are the corporations going to introduce a "how to detect counterfeit signature program" for their $7.25/hr earners nor will cashiers be spending 10 seconds looking at the back of your card to see if the signature matches stroke per stroke. All they care is getting through the line as quickly as possible.
If anything, credit and debit cards today have transformed us into nearing a cash free society where people move along faster without digging deep in your pockets looking for that extra penny or nickel when the cash register display shows $4.34 for a bag of Doritos.
If anything, signature verification is also a vestigial remnant when graphology was considered solid science and credit cards were used for larger purchases or upscale restaurants back in the day.
It really has no meaning today when one can buy a 2 liter bottle of Dr. Pepper at Walgreens or a Big Mac meal at McDonald's with a credit or debit card. Places with minimum wage earning cashiers with high volume of customers in a fast paced environment, they are not going to spend 10 seconds per customer checking the back of the card for the sake of $0.99 bottle of Dr. Pepper or a $4.99 for a Big Mac Meal.
When I swipe my credit card at CVS Pharmacy, all I make is a simple dash. Clerks are not trained professionals in counterfeit signatures nor are the corporations going to introduce a "how to detect counterfeit signature program" for their $7.25/hr earners nor will cashiers be spending 10 seconds looking at the back of your card to see if the signature matches stroke per stroke. All they care is getting through the line as quickly as possible.
If anything, credit and debit cards today have transformed us into nearing a cash free society where people move along faster without digging deep in your pockets looking for that extra penny or nickel when the cash register display shows $4.34 for a bag of Doritos.
Secondly, it seems like it is lamost my misfortune to be behind some person,usually but not always elderly (like my parents when they were alive till just recently unfortunately) and for the $4.34 check out at the supermarket, only after it is run up do they start fishing for the cash to pay it off and first out comes the bill fold and they count out 4 singles then to the purse for coins and start let's see there a quarter, aha there's a nickel but wait a minute I don't have 4 pennies so give me back the four singles, close the purse, back to the bill fold put the 4 singles back and reach for a $5 bank note and then of course the cashier has to enter cash tendered to tell him or her the person gets 76¢ in change. I stand there and stew. Whenb my turn comes, I swipe the card and am off. Which way is more efficient?
Jan 3, 2013, 3:23 pm
#642
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Secondly, it seems like it is lamost my misfortune to be behind some person,usually but not always elderly (like my parents when they were alive till just recently unfortunately) and for the $4.34 check out at the supermarket, only after it is run up do they start fishing for the cash to pay it off and first out comes the bill fold and they count out 4 singles then to the purse for coins and start let's see there a quarter, aha there's a nickel but wait a minute I don't have 4 pennies so give me back the four singles, close the purse, back to the bill fold put the 4 singles back and reach for a $5 bank note and then of course the cashier has to enter cash tendered to tell him or her the person gets 76¢ in change. I stand there and stew. Whenb my turn comes, I swipe the card and am off. Which way is more efficient?
Oh the good ol' days. I wonder how many cashiers these days know how to process a check now at the cash register?
Most young folk who now have part time jobs at the cash register don't even write checks these days themselves let alone may have lived a whole life without ever seen one. It's not really surprising to see a "how to write a check" Youtube video so as to educate the younger generation who've never seen let alone written one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9xcF3dPy5c
As you said, the days of waiting patiently are long gone. It's all about getting things done faster and getting through the line more efficiently for both the consumer and the retailer. The vestigial "verify-by-signature-if-anyone-gives-a-crap-about-them-these-days" is the only thing that stands in the way of reducing yet another 5 seconds per customer from the wait line.
Last edited by kebosabi; Jan 3, 2013 at 3:34 pm
Jan 3, 2013, 3:28 pm
#643
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Reminds of the days back in the early 1980s when majority of people still paid their groceries with checks, me and my mom always lamented the people who only after the cash register was rang up, would open their purse, open up their checkbook, oh where is that darn pen, write the grocery store name, oh what's today's date again, and write down the dollar amount, write down a memo what it's for, and sign it at the end, causing so many to be thinking "oh for crying out loud old man/lady, just them ready from the start, sheesh" moments down the line. And when the cashier asks for ID, only then do they dig open their purse and dish out their drivers license.
Oh the good ol' days. I wonder how many cashiers these days know how to process a check now at the cash register?
Oh the good ol' days. I wonder how many cashiers these days know how to process a check now at the cash register?
Jan 3, 2013, 3:34 pm
#644
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,434
Secondly, it seems like it is lamost my misfortune to be behind some person,usually but not always elderly (like my parents when they were alive till just recently unfortunately) and for the $4.34 check out at the supermarket, only after it is run up do they start fishing for the cash to pay it off and first out comes the bill fold and they count out 4 singles then to the purse for coins and start let's see there a quarter, aha there's a nickel but wait a minute I don't have 4 pennies so give me back the four singles, close the purse, back to the bill fold put the 4 singles back and reach for a $5 bank note and then of course the cashier has to enter cash tendered to tell him or her the person gets 76¢ in change. I stand there and stew. Whenb my turn comes, I swipe the card and am off. Which way is more efficient?
Jan 3, 2013, 3:38 pm
#645
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
I'll give you a better one...a bill for say $8.39, the customer reaches in and pulls out a $10 bank note and the cashier enters amount tendered $10 and the customer then starts counting out the $0.39 and the cashier says, sorry, I've already entered the amount tendered!