CO Captain provides a new twist on assigned seating
Oct 30, 2001, 4:04 pm
#91
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 4,843
B747-437B,
I say take them to court. Call a few reputable law firms and explain the situation. This sounds like a case any lawyer would love to have. Then see which firm you feel the best about, and make CO pay up. I hate frivolous law suits, but this is anything but. If you are really serious about this, do NOT accept any compensation from CO prior to getting legal advise. If CO gives you a $1 voucher and you accept it, they are off the hook. Make CO know you are serious, and they will soil themselves pretty quickly.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
I say take them to court. Call a few reputable law firms and explain the situation. This sounds like a case any lawyer would love to have. Then see which firm you feel the best about, and make CO pay up. I hate frivolous law suits, but this is anything but. If you are really serious about this, do NOT accept any compensation from CO prior to getting legal advise. If CO gives you a $1 voucher and you accept it, they are off the hook. Make CO know you are serious, and they will soil themselves pretty quickly.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Oct 31, 2001, 7:53 am
#92
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 481
LGA:
Forgive me for jumping in here, but I think you may have misunderstood FWAAA's post. The first paragraph was clearly addressed to you, but the rest of the post was addressed "To others who think the pilot's decision-making was sound." I think that part was not directed toward you but others in this thread who have expressed more direct support for the captain.
FWAAA, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Forgive me for jumping in here, but I think you may have misunderstood FWAAA's post. The first paragraph was clearly addressed to you, but the rest of the post was addressed "To others who think the pilot's decision-making was sound." I think that part was not directed toward you but others in this thread who have expressed more direct support for the captain.
FWAAA, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Oct 31, 2001, 1:48 pm
#93
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
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Posts: 5,184
Interesting post. In a few weeks I'm going to Hawaii. Because I plan to check my bags and just carry-on an overnight bag, I have reserved bulkhead rows in first class. Now I worry.. slightly.. Unlike B747, I'm travelling with my wife, so I should be OK... I think.. I hope ...
Often airline agents make us all so mad we'd like to see them out of work. This guy is the first I can think of who really deserves to walk the streets -- considering the thousands of other qualified pilots who have been laid off and looking for jobs... Good luck.
Often airline agents make us all so mad we'd like to see them out of work. This guy is the first I can think of who really deserves to walk the streets -- considering the thousands of other qualified pilots who have been laid off and looking for jobs... Good luck.
Oct 31, 2001, 11:06 pm
#94
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Sean,
I must say I was very disturbed to read about what happened to you on Continental Airlines. From your description and based solely upon what you have said and assuming its accuracy and completeness and that there are no extenuating circumstances of which I am not aware, the actions of the pilot were deplorable and I admire you for how calm you were.
I understand that, at an airport, profiling in these troubled times might be essential for security checks, as troubling a concept as that might be, but that is no excuse for the pilot essentially imprisoning you between two big, although nice guys, for your flight. But what is more important, and why your situation is different from others that I have read about recently, is that the pilot apparently forced you to move and apparently humiliated you with the assistance of a New Jersey State Trooper. This apparent discrimination seems to have been done under color of law.
New Jersey is currently under a consent order with the federal government because of racial profiling and a State Trooper should have known better than to condone what might well be a violation of your civil rights under federal and state law, including the United States Constitution. We are in Afghanistan fighting people who do not understand our freedoms and are trying to destroy them. It is deplorable, and I would say morally wrong and probably illegal, to punish someone because of the color of their skin. Unless the pilot and/or the police could show you were a threat, in which case, you should have been prevented from boarding for everyones safety, I would say that you should not have been treated the way you were.
John J. Farmer, Jr., Attorney General of New Jersey, recently said at The Arab-American Institute that I have one overriding message to bring to you today: we must uphold the rule of law. The rule of law is the foundation of our civilization, and protects everyone. One may wonder what role the rule of law can play in these unsettled, chaotic times. But it seems to me that the rule of law has two fundamental applications that are especially important today. First, I am here to tell you that there will be zero tolerance for bias crimes. I feel that he should be made aware of what happened so this does not happen again. It is one thing for a pilot to apparently violate someones civil rights, but the State of New Jersey should not be an accessory. You might also want to contact the independent state monitors under the Consent Decree, Dr. James Ginger and Albert Rivas, Esq.
As to the pilot, if this had happened in the immediate aftermath of September 11, I might have understood, although not condoned, his actions. But this took place over a month later. From what you said, I would question his emotional competence to pilot a plane. He might be a greater threat to passenger safety than you would ever be. In addition, he might be a pilot, but that does not make him anywhere near an expert on security. Anyway, as Mr. Farmer says The rule of law is the foundation of our civilization and it is not up to him to make the law, in particular when it was not an emergency situation in the air. Since so many people are losing their jobs at Continental, I would hope that he would be one of them. In addition, I would hope his pension rights (and free travel rights) would be assigned over to you or even better to an organization that promotes tolerance and freedom.
As to Continental Airlines, I am a person who is a great fan of Continental Airlines. I am sure that what happened is completely against Continental policy. In fact, Continental has a customer service representative in London who is dark skinned and wears a turban. I guess he would not be allowed to fly on a flight with your pilot either. The question is whether the pilot (and the gate agent) will be adequately punished by the airline (assuming the union does not try to stop that, which would make the union an accessory to a great injustice). I do feel that Continental should make amends anyway.
I would consider contacting a local attorney who specializes in such matters. You might also want to contact the ACLU and the media.
At the least (regardless of your legal rights) you should get an apology and perhaps Platinum status for life, perhaps with positive upgrades to seat 1B. I just hope I could sit next to you.
[This message has been edited by Nevsky (edited 11-01-2001).]
I must say I was very disturbed to read about what happened to you on Continental Airlines. From your description and based solely upon what you have said and assuming its accuracy and completeness and that there are no extenuating circumstances of which I am not aware, the actions of the pilot were deplorable and I admire you for how calm you were.
I understand that, at an airport, profiling in these troubled times might be essential for security checks, as troubling a concept as that might be, but that is no excuse for the pilot essentially imprisoning you between two big, although nice guys, for your flight. But what is more important, and why your situation is different from others that I have read about recently, is that the pilot apparently forced you to move and apparently humiliated you with the assistance of a New Jersey State Trooper. This apparent discrimination seems to have been done under color of law.
New Jersey is currently under a consent order with the federal government because of racial profiling and a State Trooper should have known better than to condone what might well be a violation of your civil rights under federal and state law, including the United States Constitution. We are in Afghanistan fighting people who do not understand our freedoms and are trying to destroy them. It is deplorable, and I would say morally wrong and probably illegal, to punish someone because of the color of their skin. Unless the pilot and/or the police could show you were a threat, in which case, you should have been prevented from boarding for everyones safety, I would say that you should not have been treated the way you were.
John J. Farmer, Jr., Attorney General of New Jersey, recently said at The Arab-American Institute that I have one overriding message to bring to you today: we must uphold the rule of law. The rule of law is the foundation of our civilization, and protects everyone. One may wonder what role the rule of law can play in these unsettled, chaotic times. But it seems to me that the rule of law has two fundamental applications that are especially important today. First, I am here to tell you that there will be zero tolerance for bias crimes. I feel that he should be made aware of what happened so this does not happen again. It is one thing for a pilot to apparently violate someones civil rights, but the State of New Jersey should not be an accessory. You might also want to contact the independent state monitors under the Consent Decree, Dr. James Ginger and Albert Rivas, Esq.
As to the pilot, if this had happened in the immediate aftermath of September 11, I might have understood, although not condoned, his actions. But this took place over a month later. From what you said, I would question his emotional competence to pilot a plane. He might be a greater threat to passenger safety than you would ever be. In addition, he might be a pilot, but that does not make him anywhere near an expert on security. Anyway, as Mr. Farmer says The rule of law is the foundation of our civilization and it is not up to him to make the law, in particular when it was not an emergency situation in the air. Since so many people are losing their jobs at Continental, I would hope that he would be one of them. In addition, I would hope his pension rights (and free travel rights) would be assigned over to you or even better to an organization that promotes tolerance and freedom.
As to Continental Airlines, I am a person who is a great fan of Continental Airlines. I am sure that what happened is completely against Continental policy. In fact, Continental has a customer service representative in London who is dark skinned and wears a turban. I guess he would not be allowed to fly on a flight with your pilot either. The question is whether the pilot (and the gate agent) will be adequately punished by the airline (assuming the union does not try to stop that, which would make the union an accessory to a great injustice). I do feel that Continental should make amends anyway.
I would consider contacting a local attorney who specializes in such matters. You might also want to contact the ACLU and the media.
At the least (regardless of your legal rights) you should get an apology and perhaps Platinum status for life, perhaps with positive upgrades to seat 1B. I just hope I could sit next to you.
[This message has been edited by Nevsky (edited 11-01-2001).]
Nov 1, 2001, 12:05 am
#95
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 4,843
Don't accept any of that platinum for life bull*$@#. Only accept a check with a hell of a lot of zeros. This is the kind of case that could easily make it to the supreme court. The reason is that it will be the first of its kind filed after Sept 11. A precedent needs to be set, and this is the perfect case for it. If you find a savvy enough lawyer, you might be able to get the supreme court to take original jurisdiction of the case. That means that you don't need to mess with appeals.
CO will be a lot more responsive after you threaten and/or file a suit.
CO will be a lot more responsive after you threaten and/or file a suit.
Nov 1, 2001, 4:01 am
#96
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Exile
Posts: 15,692
Thanks once again for the kind words of support and advice.
I want to clarify two points here. First, the NJ State Trooper did not participate in the incident at all beyond standing and observing Capt. Broderdorf's actions. I did not even obtain his name, nor that of the gate agent. Attempting to pursue that avenue will undoubtedly run into a number of brick walls.
Second, it is not my intention at this point to use this incident to obtain a large monetary settlement from Continental. My objective is to bring this matter to their attention to ensure that they take appropriate steps to prevent any other innocent passenger from suffering such unwarranted humiliation. I believe that they are capable of settling this matter in good faith. If they fail to do so, I will reconsider my options.
I want to clarify two points here. First, the NJ State Trooper did not participate in the incident at all beyond standing and observing Capt. Broderdorf's actions. I did not even obtain his name, nor that of the gate agent. Attempting to pursue that avenue will undoubtedly run into a number of brick walls.
Second, it is not my intention at this point to use this incident to obtain a large monetary settlement from Continental. My objective is to bring this matter to their attention to ensure that they take appropriate steps to prevent any other innocent passenger from suffering such unwarranted humiliation. I believe that they are capable of settling this matter in good faith. If they fail to do so, I will reconsider my options.
Nov 1, 2001, 7:30 am
#97
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Sean,
I agree with your goals completely. I think Continental is a great airline and they should take action to be sure it does not happen again. But the State of New Jersey should too. I think the State Troopers action or inaction is just as important. He should not have stood there while your civil rights were being violated. He should have sought a back-upfrom his legal advisors. From your description, his standing there seemed to give the pilots actions the color of law and implied that if you did not comply you might be pulled off the plane and possibly arrested by him. In fact, the Trooper might even have had a basis to arrest the pilot for violating your civil rights.
[This message has been edited by Nevsky (edited 11-01-2001).]
I agree with your goals completely. I think Continental is a great airline and they should take action to be sure it does not happen again. But the State of New Jersey should too. I think the State Troopers action or inaction is just as important. He should not have stood there while your civil rights were being violated. He should have sought a back-upfrom his legal advisors. From your description, his standing there seemed to give the pilots actions the color of law and implied that if you did not comply you might be pulled off the plane and possibly arrested by him. In fact, the Trooper might even have had a basis to arrest the pilot for violating your civil rights.
[This message has been edited by Nevsky (edited 11-01-2001).]
Nov 1, 2001, 9:54 am
#98
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This story is a disgrace to our nation -- that CO pilot should be disciplined for exhibiting such blatant racial bias. I cannot believe you remained calm in the face of such outrageous treatment and I hope and pray that such incidents remain the exception rather than the rule. I would definitely demand some form of compensation for such a deliberate and unwarranted form of public humiliation.
Nov 1, 2001, 3:40 pm
#99
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 4,843
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by B747-437B:
it is not my intention at this point to use this incident to obtain a large monetary settlement from Continental</font>
it is not my intention at this point to use this incident to obtain a large monetary settlement from Continental</font>
I admire that it is not your intention to receive money out of this; however, if anyone should, you should. I still think that you should talk to a lawyer and get a few opinions as to whether this is worth pursuing. Your constitutional rights were clearly violated, and CO needs to be forced to change its ways.
Nov 1, 2001, 5:32 pm
#100
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er
[This message has been edited by arya alliance (edited 11-01-2001).]
[This message has been edited by arya alliance (edited 11-01-2001).]
Nov 1, 2001, 5:39 pm
#101
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me too.
[This message has been edited by JonNYC (edited 11-01-2001).]
[This message has been edited by JonNYC (edited 11-01-2001).]
Nov 1, 2001, 6:19 pm
#103
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by R&R:
This could be a case ofr REVERSE DISCRIMINATION!</font>
This could be a case ofr REVERSE DISCRIMINATION!</font>
Nov 1, 2001, 8:27 pm
#104
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quote by johnep1:
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"...Your constitutional rights were clearly violated..."
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Not being a lawyer, I do not understand this as well as you obviously do. Would you please cite your references?
MisterNice
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"...Your constitutional rights were clearly violated..."
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Not being a lawyer, I do not understand this as well as you obviously do. Would you please cite your references?
MisterNice
Nov 1, 2001, 11:16 pm
#105
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For anyone who needs references to the Constitution and statutes of this great country of ours, please note the following. In addition to the 14th amendment to the Constitution, in particular please note Section 2000a of the United States Code with respect to discrimination by officials of the State. (These are for reference only and may or may not be applicable in the present situation.)
The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution states that no state "shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of the citizens of the United States . . . [or] deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, [or] deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Title 42 United States Code
Chapter 21 Civil Rights
Sec. 1981. Equal rights under the law
(a) Statement of equal rights
All persons within the jurisdiction of the United States shall have the same right in every State and Territory to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, give evidence, and to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of persons and property as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, penalties, taxes, licenses, and exactions of every kind, and to no other.
...
(c) Protection against impairment
The rights protected by this section are protected against impairment by nongovernmental discrimination and impairment under color of State law.
Sec. 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress....
Section 2000a.
(d) Support by State action
Discrimination or segregation by an establishment is supported by State action within the meaning of this subchapter if such discrimination or segregation (1) is carried on under color of any law, statute, ordinance, or regulation; or (2) is carried on under color of any custom or usage required or enforced by officials of the State or political subdivision thereof; or (3) is required by action of the State or political subdivision thereof.
I can assure you that you will not find laws like these in Afghanistan.
A security check based on racial profiling (although controversial) is one thing, but what happened to Sean seems to go way beyond a security check.
[This message has been edited by Nevsky (edited 11-01-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Nevsky (edited 11-01-2001).]
The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution states that no state "shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of the citizens of the United States . . . [or] deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, [or] deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Title 42 United States Code
Chapter 21 Civil Rights
Sec. 1981. Equal rights under the law
(a) Statement of equal rights
All persons within the jurisdiction of the United States shall have the same right in every State and Territory to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, give evidence, and to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of persons and property as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, penalties, taxes, licenses, and exactions of every kind, and to no other.
...
(c) Protection against impairment
The rights protected by this section are protected against impairment by nongovernmental discrimination and impairment under color of State law.
Sec. 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress....
Section 2000a.
(d) Support by State action
Discrimination or segregation by an establishment is supported by State action within the meaning of this subchapter if such discrimination or segregation (1) is carried on under color of any law, statute, ordinance, or regulation; or (2) is carried on under color of any custom or usage required or enforced by officials of the State or political subdivision thereof; or (3) is required by action of the State or political subdivision thereof.
I can assure you that you will not find laws like these in Afghanistan.
A security check based on racial profiling (although controversial) is one thing, but what happened to Sean seems to go way beyond a security check.
[This message has been edited by Nevsky (edited 11-01-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Nevsky (edited 11-01-2001).]