Jan 24, 2014, 5:20 pm
Last edit by: mia
The thread was split on September 24, 2014 for technical reasons. This version of the Wikipost is frozen as of that date. Please click HERE to read the newer posts and the most current Wikipost.
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For questions NOT related to the application process - such as experiences using benefits - refer to the AA forum thread on this card: AA Citibank Executive / AAdvantage World Elite MasterCard (Master Thread)
Recommended Application Procedure:
Clear cache and cookies prior to applying or use an incognito or private browsing session to apply. Opening multiple different apps in different windows or tabs or failing to clear cookies/cache has resulted in people receiving a lesser offer for some Citi cards. [B]We do not know, and Citi has not indicated, how long these offers will last. Citi has left other offers alive for over a year beyond the 'apply by' date in the past. These links could be here all year or gone tomorrow. If the application loads, it is good, based on past Citi applications that survived past the landing page expiration, regardless of any posted or advertised 'apply by' date.
MOST CURRENT LINKS:
As of 8/19/14, the 60K+ links are no longer working, and give the following error:
[This link stopped working for a few days in July but seems to be working again] Many thanks to LM225 - Citi AA Executive Personal Mastercard, 100,000 miles after $10,000 spend in 3 months, Admirals Club access for cardholder and family or cardholder and two guests, up to $200 in statement credits. $450 annual fee, not waived. Landing page no longer loads as of 6/24.
The landing page asks for a first and last name but the application loads with or without the landing page. This is a CHIP and Signature card. If you go through the landing page, please use any referral code given to you by an AC rep.
For alternate 100K links, see Post #6084. https://www.citicards.com/cards/acq/...&screenID=3001
Many thanks to lobo411 - Citi AA Executive Personal Mastercard, 75,000 miles after $7500 spend in 3 months, Admirals Club access for cardholder and family or cardholder and two guests, up to $100 in statement credits. $450 annual fee, not waived. No landing page. This is a CHIP and Signature card. Bonus confirmed in posts 136 and 142. Still working: There is also a public version of this offer Citi AA Mastercard, 75,000 miles, Landing page available here. HT Belllaaa.
Many thanks to cerealmarketer - Citi AA Executive Personal Mastercard, 60,000 miles after $5k spend in 3 months, Admirals Club access for cardholder and family or cardholder and two guests. $450 annual fee, not waived. Landing page available here. This is a CHIP and Signature card. Landing page for 60K for $5K, with $100 statement credit and application.
Current 50K public offer: (Be carefull this link is showing as 30k in citi system, use other link for 50k) Landing page for 50K for $5K spending, no statement credit and application.
New 50k offer:
Landing page for New 50K for $5K spending, no statement credit - Application Link WARNING: This landing page contains the following in the Footnotes: "American Airlines AAdvantage® bonus miles are not available if you have had a Citi Executive® / AAdvantage® World EliteTM MasterCard® opened or closed in the past 18 months." But the app link directly following it goes to a totally different app page, which is reported to be working as usual.
EXPEDITED SHIPPING
While reconsideration/application reps do not seem to be aware of this, these cards are expedited and usually arrive 1-2 days after approval.The CSR will not take a request to expedite the card.
Who is eligible for this card? Anyone as long as you can be approved for the minimum $5K credit line, subject to the standard Citi rules of 1 Citi app or card of any kind per 8 days and 2 Citi cards or apps of any kind per 65 days. It is always advisable to wait 65 days from any type of Citi denial before applying for another Citi card. Many have reported getting approved for this card in spite of having several open AA cards over the past year as well as having previously had this card.
Not sure about the 8 and 65 day rules? If your most recent application for any Citi card is less than click here - 8 days ago, you need to wait. Also, if your previous (second-to-last) Citi application is less than click here - 65 days ago, you need to wait. These are not rules published or known by Citi CSRs but rather based on thousands of Citi card applications and datapoints across several threads.
This card can be churned. Recent datapoints concerning multiple Executive cards include posts 917, 1059 and starting at 1365. For in-depth datapoints and advice on churning Citi cards, read and study the extensive wiki posts in the HH thread and the AA Plat/gold thread. Click the plus on the right hand side of the wiki if you do not see the wiki text. Datapoints for bonus points posting on multiple cards include post 2579.
Getting around the $450 annual fee: Some have been able to meet the spending requirement before the first statement posts and then cancel and have the fee refunded after the miles post. Details and datapoints include starting at post 74. T&C state that the card must be cancelled within 30 days of the fee posting to get it refunded. Potential problems with this plans include a very short (1 week or less) first "month" as well as delays in miles posting which have been reported by several FTers here http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...ost-first.html. YMMV. If paying $250-$450 for a year's access to Admirals Clubs and the 60K-100K miles is a deal breaker, this card may not be for you.
Once you cancel the card (within the 37 day window of AF posting) the refund will post on the account between 1-3 business days.
Retention Bonus Offers: User have been offered the following retention bonus offers when calling to cancel the card:
- 5,000 points + $100 credit with $1,500 spend per month for 3 months 5333
- 2 additional club member passes 6862
- 1,000 bonus miles each month for 16 month, min $1k spend/month 6862
Already a member? If you already purchased an AC membership (for example, using the credit from Amex Plat) and apply and are approved for this card, AA will refund you the pro-rated AF from any time left on your membership.
When do miles post? Usually a few days after your statement closes. In some cases your statement will show the correct miles earned but will show 0 miles reported to AA. In this case see this thread.
Please post more experiences about cancelling to avoid the $450 fee
Helpful points from post #3794 and others, especially for those new to Citi:
1) Citi CSRs are clueless, so disregard everything they say that seems to contradict anything you have read on F/T. And take everything else with a big grain of salt. I was told 3 times VERY CLEARLY "You will not got your annual fee refunded" while I was cancelling, but I did get it.
2a) With Citi, if you are approved for a card, and meet the minimum spend requirement, you will get the bonus listed for the offer you applied for. Every time ! Unlike Chase or AMEX, who will send you a card, wait for you to pay the fee and spend, and then say "sorry, you don't qualify for a bonus". If Citi doesn't intend to give you the bonus, they will just deny your app. They won't even do a pull, they will just instantly deny your app. If they send you the card, and you meet the spend on time, you will get the bonus. My attorney insists I add "that could change tomorrow", but from the Big Bang thru today, that has always been true.
2b) Another helpful post discussing timeframe for meeting min spend: 6279
3) Any expectation that Citi will do things that make sense is just plain silly. They won't.
Admiral Club Access: You do not need to be flying AA that particular day of travel. (Ex: you're flying DL on the day of travel...you could still enter the AC lounge, even though you're not on an AA flight that day.) Beware, though, that individual lounges have individual rules (see the link below). Alternate rules usually come w/ Qantas lounges, not AA lounges. Furthermore, AC access "comes with" US Air access (19 locations). An authorized user does not have AC access unless they are with the primary card holder. The authorized user's card will have the "Admiral Club" language omitted from the back of their card.
For reference, an AC lounge list: http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInforma...#admirals-club
For questions and discussions on lounge access: Help Desk: Lounge Access and Lounge Access Rules
$200 Statement Credit on any purchase:
Multiple datapoints within this thread as well as multiple confirmations from CSRs say that the $200 statement credit is for any purchase.
Also, please note that these cards do not include the 10% miles rebate offered by some other Citi AA products.
What about the EQM? AA tracks your miles earned on Executive card(s) and adds 10K Elite Qualifying Miles to your EQM balance once you earn 40,000 miles during a calendar year on Executive card(s). Any number of Executive cards can add up to the 40K, and you cannot earn more than 10K EQM each year. No redeemable miles are added, and this is of no consequence or value unless you will also earn at least 15K additional EQM in a given year by flying and 10K will bump you up to the next status level.
Direct phone number to Citi Fraud Prevention department: +18664705331
Concierge service enrollment (allows for electronic requests). Concierge number is +18778812668
Here are the minimum credit limit required amounts in order to keep an account open (for purposes of new card applications and reconsiderations)
Citi Amex 1k (likely citi gold as well)
Citi Visa signature/world MasterCard 3k
Citi World elite Mastercards (including exec) 5k
Advice to those new to citi American Airlines cards,
If you are just starting out please apply and use the lower level citi AA card for a while before moving on to this thread and card. This will help you in the long run in more ways than one. Most of us here have opened and used lower level AA cards before moving on to this thread and card
Also,
Check out this thread
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/citi-...ost-first.html
-----------------------------------
For questions NOT related to the application process - such as experiences using benefits - refer to the AA forum thread on this card: AA Citibank Executive / AAdvantage World Elite MasterCard (Master Thread)
Recommended Application Procedure:
Clear cache and cookies prior to applying or use an incognito or private browsing session to apply. Opening multiple different apps in different windows or tabs or failing to clear cookies/cache has resulted in people receiving a lesser offer for some Citi cards. [B]We do not know, and Citi has not indicated, how long these offers will last. Citi has left other offers alive for over a year beyond the 'apply by' date in the past. These links could be here all year or gone tomorrow. If the application loads, it is good, based on past Citi applications that survived past the landing page expiration, regardless of any posted or advertised 'apply by' date.
MOST CURRENT LINKS:
As of 8/19/14, the 60K+ links are no longer working, and give the following error:
A system error has caused a delay in processing your application. Please try again later.
[This link stopped working for a few days in July but seems to be working again] Many thanks to LM225 - Citi AA Executive Personal Mastercard, 100,000 miles after $10,000 spend in 3 months, Admirals Club access for cardholder and family or cardholder and two guests, up to $200 in statement credits. $450 annual fee, not waived. Landing page no longer loads as of 6/24.
Current 50K public offer: (Be carefull this link is showing as 30k in citi system, use other link for 50k) Landing page for 50K for $5K spending, no statement credit and application.
New 50k offer:
Landing page for New 50K for $5K spending, no statement credit - Application Link WARNING: This landing page contains the following in the Footnotes: "American Airlines AAdvantage® bonus miles are not available if you have had a Citi Executive® / AAdvantage® World EliteTM MasterCard® opened or closed in the past 18 months." But the app link directly following it goes to a totally different app page, which is reported to be working as usual.
EXPEDITED SHIPPING
While reconsideration/application reps do not seem to be aware of this, these cards are expedited and usually arrive 1-2 days after approval.The CSR will not take a request to expedite the card.
Who is eligible for this card? Anyone as long as you can be approved for the minimum $5K credit line, subject to the standard Citi rules of 1 Citi app or card of any kind per 8 days and 2 Citi cards or apps of any kind per 65 days. It is always advisable to wait 65 days from any type of Citi denial before applying for another Citi card. Many have reported getting approved for this card in spite of having several open AA cards over the past year as well as having previously had this card.
Not sure about the 8 and 65 day rules? If your most recent application for any Citi card is less than click here - 8 days ago, you need to wait. Also, if your previous (second-to-last) Citi application is less than click here - 65 days ago, you need to wait. These are not rules published or known by Citi CSRs but rather based on thousands of Citi card applications and datapoints across several threads.
This card can be churned. Recent datapoints concerning multiple Executive cards include posts 917, 1059 and starting at 1365. For in-depth datapoints and advice on churning Citi cards, read and study the extensive wiki posts in the HH thread and the AA Plat/gold thread. Click the plus on the right hand side of the wiki if you do not see the wiki text. Datapoints for bonus points posting on multiple cards include post 2579.
Getting around the $450 annual fee: Some have been able to meet the spending requirement before the first statement posts and then cancel and have the fee refunded after the miles post. Details and datapoints include starting at post 74. T&C state that the card must be cancelled within 30 days of the fee posting to get it refunded. Potential problems with this plans include a very short (1 week or less) first "month" as well as delays in miles posting which have been reported by several FTers here http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...ost-first.html. YMMV. If paying $250-$450 for a year's access to Admirals Clubs and the 60K-100K miles is a deal breaker, this card may not be for you.
Once you cancel the card (within the 37 day window of AF posting) the refund will post on the account between 1-3 business days.
Retention Bonus Offers: User have been offered the following retention bonus offers when calling to cancel the card:
- 5,000 points + $100 credit with $1,500 spend per month for 3 months 5333
- 2 additional club member passes 6862
- 1,000 bonus miles each month for 16 month, min $1k spend/month 6862
Already a member? If you already purchased an AC membership (for example, using the credit from Amex Plat) and apply and are approved for this card, AA will refund you the pro-rated AF from any time left on your membership.
When do miles post? Usually a few days after your statement closes. In some cases your statement will show the correct miles earned but will show 0 miles reported to AA. In this case see this thread.
Please post more experiences about cancelling to avoid the $450 fee
Helpful points from post #3794 and others, especially for those new to Citi:
1) Citi CSRs are clueless, so disregard everything they say that seems to contradict anything you have read on F/T. And take everything else with a big grain of salt. I was told 3 times VERY CLEARLY "You will not got your annual fee refunded" while I was cancelling, but I did get it.
2a) With Citi, if you are approved for a card, and meet the minimum spend requirement, you will get the bonus listed for the offer you applied for. Every time ! Unlike Chase or AMEX, who will send you a card, wait for you to pay the fee and spend, and then say "sorry, you don't qualify for a bonus". If Citi doesn't intend to give you the bonus, they will just deny your app. They won't even do a pull, they will just instantly deny your app. If they send you the card, and you meet the spend on time, you will get the bonus. My attorney insists I add "that could change tomorrow", but from the Big Bang thru today, that has always been true.
2b) Another helpful post discussing timeframe for meeting min spend: 6279
3) Any expectation that Citi will do things that make sense is just plain silly. They won't.
Citibank Contacts/Resources
- Application status: https://www.accountonline.com/cards/...?screenID=3187
- (800) 695-5171 – Personal Application Status and Reconsideration Line with live rep
- (800) 763-9795 – General Personal Application Inquiries with live rep
- (866) 606-2787 – General Application and Account Questions with live rep
- (888) 201-4523 – Application status
- (866) 606-2961 – Reconsideration Line.
- Twitter : @AskCiti. Very powerful tool.
- Executive Office - useful for getting a more empowered agent for reconsideration purposes: CitiBank Executive Review Department, P.O. Box 6000, Sioux Falls, SD 57117
For reference, an AC lounge list: http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInforma...#admirals-club
For questions and discussions on lounge access: Help Desk: Lounge Access and Lounge Access Rules
$200 Statement Credit on any purchase:
Multiple datapoints within this thread as well as multiple confirmations from CSRs say that the $200 statement credit is for any purchase.
Also, please note that these cards do not include the 10% miles rebate offered by some other Citi AA products.
What about the EQM? AA tracks your miles earned on Executive card(s) and adds 10K Elite Qualifying Miles to your EQM balance once you earn 40,000 miles during a calendar year on Executive card(s). Any number of Executive cards can add up to the 40K, and you cannot earn more than 10K EQM each year. No redeemable miles are added, and this is of no consequence or value unless you will also earn at least 15K additional EQM in a given year by flying and 10K will bump you up to the next status level.
Direct phone number to Citi Fraud Prevention department: +18664705331
Concierge service enrollment (allows for electronic requests). Concierge number is +18778812668
Here are the minimum credit limit required amounts in order to keep an account open (for purposes of new card applications and reconsiderations)
Citi Amex 1k (likely citi gold as well)
Citi Visa signature/world MasterCard 3k
Citi World elite Mastercards (including exec) 5k
Advice to those new to citi American Airlines cards,
If you are just starting out please apply and use the lower level citi AA card for a while before moving on to this thread and card. This will help you in the long run in more ways than one. Most of us here have opened and used lower level AA cards before moving on to this thread and card
Also,
Check out this thread
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/citi-...ost-first.html
Citi Executive AA MasterCard [October 2013 - September 2014]
May 15, 2014, 12:03 pm
#5671
Join Date: Jul 2013
Programs: SPG Gold/HH Diamond/CC Gold/Hyatt Explorist
Posts: 310
Agreed. If Citi were deeply concerned with cancellations & annual fee refunds, this would be their best course of action.
May 15, 2014, 12:55 pm
#5672
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: LAX/BUR
Posts: 525
Don't forget the fact that Citi is making money on our $10,000, even if we cancel and they still give us the $200. So they're not really losing here.
I know we joke around about how stupid Citi must be, but they're not THAT dumb. This has been going on for months. They obviously know this is happening. For every person who spends $10,000, gets the miles and SC and cancels, there are probably 5 people who either don't spend the $10,000 in time to get the bonus, keep the card, spend outside of their means and have to pay a ton of interest, etc.
FT may seem like we are the majority here, but we are far from it.
I know we joke around about how stupid Citi must be, but they're not THAT dumb. This has been going on for months. They obviously know this is happening. For every person who spends $10,000, gets the miles and SC and cancels, there are probably 5 people who either don't spend the $10,000 in time to get the bonus, keep the card, spend outside of their means and have to pay a ton of interest, etc.
FT may seem like we are the majority here, but we are far from it.
May 15, 2014, 1:17 pm
#5673
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,345
On the app I can't see the wiki. My question is does this card allow entry into US Airways lounges for cardholder + 1 guest?
I think this answers my question: http://www.aa.com/i18n/urls/more-clubs.jsp?anchorLocation=DirectURL&title=arriving_ AdmiralsClub
I think this answers my question: http://www.aa.com/i18n/urls/more-clubs.jsp?anchorLocation=DirectURL&title=arriving_ AdmiralsClub
May 15, 2014, 1:27 pm
#5674
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: SoCal
Programs: AA EXP, SPG Lifetime Platinum, MR Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 249
SM is my friend 
May 15, 2014, 3:17 pm
#5675
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: LAX/BUR
Posts: 525
I know nobody can have a 100% yes or no answer to this, but I'm curious what you guys might think since Citi seems to be giving these bad boys out like candy.
My brother is going to be studying abroad in New Zealand from July-November and is trying to get a card that has no FTF and will give him at least enough miles to go from NZ to Bali.
I had suggested he apply for the United card from Chase because he would get both of those things. However, Chase has apparently recently upped their minimum credit line for this card to $5,000 because I have a card that was given a lower line than that and have friends who were given smaller lines than that as well. Chase didn't think he qualified to have a $5,000 limit, which I understand because he doesn't have much credit history.
Do you think there's any chance he would be approved for this card? I understand this one also has a $5,000 minimum, but they seem to give these out super easily. His CK score is 693. AAoA is 10 months. Oldest credit card is like 4-5 months old and is a Discover Student card. His AAoA is at that because of student loans that are older.
Thoughts?
My brother is going to be studying abroad in New Zealand from July-November and is trying to get a card that has no FTF and will give him at least enough miles to go from NZ to Bali.
I had suggested he apply for the United card from Chase because he would get both of those things. However, Chase has apparently recently upped their minimum credit line for this card to $5,000 because I have a card that was given a lower line than that and have friends who were given smaller lines than that as well. Chase didn't think he qualified to have a $5,000 limit, which I understand because he doesn't have much credit history.
Do you think there's any chance he would be approved for this card? I understand this one also has a $5,000 minimum, but they seem to give these out super easily. His CK score is 693. AAoA is 10 months. Oldest credit card is like 4-5 months old and is a Discover Student card. His AAoA is at that because of student loans that are older.
Thoughts?
May 15, 2014, 3:28 pm
#5676
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: San Antonio
Programs: AS MVP
Posts: 2,276
maddie5218 - based on the experience of the poster who originally shared the 75K link, I think he'll be ok as long as his income is better than 25K. You can find those datapoints starting in late January, within the first 10 pages of this thread.
May 15, 2014, 3:31 pm
#5677
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 179
I know nobody can have a 100% yes or no answer to this, but I'm curious what you guys might think since Citi seems to be giving these bad boys out like candy.
My brother is going to be studying abroad in New Zealand from July-November and is trying to get a card that has no FTF and will give him at least enough miles to go from NZ to Bali.
I had suggested he apply for the United card from Chase because he would get both of those things. However, Chase has apparently recently upped their minimum credit line for this card to $5,000 because I have a card that was given a lower line than that and have friends who were given smaller lines than that as well. Chase didn't think he qualified to have a $5,000 limit, which I understand because he doesn't have much credit history.
Do you think there's any chance he would be approved for this card? I understand this one also has a $5,000 minimum, but they seem to give these out super easily. His CK score is 693. AAoA is 10 months. Oldest credit card is like 4-5 months old and is a Discover Student card. His AAoA is at that because of student loans that are older.
Thoughts?
My brother is going to be studying abroad in New Zealand from July-November and is trying to get a card that has no FTF and will give him at least enough miles to go from NZ to Bali.
I had suggested he apply for the United card from Chase because he would get both of those things. However, Chase has apparently recently upped their minimum credit line for this card to $5,000 because I have a card that was given a lower line than that and have friends who were given smaller lines than that as well. Chase didn't think he qualified to have a $5,000 limit, which I understand because he doesn't have much credit history.
Do you think there's any chance he would be approved for this card? I understand this one also has a $5,000 minimum, but they seem to give these out super easily. His CK score is 693. AAoA is 10 months. Oldest credit card is like 4-5 months old and is a Discover Student card. His AAoA is at that because of student loans that are older.
Thoughts?
May 15, 2014, 3:34 pm
#5678
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: LAX/BUR
Posts: 525
He's a college student, so it's not. Starting at 21, I know you're allowed to include "other sources of income" aka my parents so he could put 25K, but he won't be 21 until October. Argh. I don't know what card to tell him to get, or if he even has a shot at any of them.
May 15, 2014, 3:59 pm
#5679
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: AA Fortress, no MRs for me!
Programs: AA Exec Plat (LT Gold), SPG Platinum, Hyatt Globalist, National Executive Elite
Posts: 309
Question on cancel order...I have 3 cards...Day 1, Day 8, and Day 65....Which is the best order to cancel? Any thoughts / insights on best move?
May 15, 2014, 4:03 pm
#5680
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: DFW
Programs: AA PLT, HH Gold, SPG/Marriott Gold
Posts: 1,091
He's a college student, so it's not. Starting at 21, I know you're allowed to include "other sources of income" aka my parents so he could put 25K, but he won't be 21 until October. Argh. I don't know what card to tell him to get, or if he even has a shot at any of them.
May 15, 2014, 4:33 pm
#5681
Suspended
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ORD
Programs: AA, UA, AS, DL, BA, F9, IHG Plat, HH Gold, CC Gold, SPG Gold, MR Silver
Posts: 1,786
Don't forget the fact that Citi is making money on our $10,000, even if we cancel and they still give us the $200. So they're not really losing here.
I know we joke around about how stupid Citi must be, but they're not THAT dumb. This has been going on for months. They obviously know this is happening. For every person who spends $10,000, gets the miles and SC and cancels, there are probably 5 people who either don't spend the $10,000 in time to get the bonus, keep the card, spend outside of their means and have to pay a ton of interest, etc.
FT may seem like we are the majority here, but we are far from it.
I know we joke around about how stupid Citi must be, but they're not THAT dumb. This has been going on for months. They obviously know this is happening. For every person who spends $10,000, gets the miles and SC and cancels, there are probably 5 people who either don't spend the $10,000 in time to get the bonus, keep the card, spend outside of their means and have to pay a ton of interest, etc.
FT may seem like we are the majority here, but we are far from it.
May 15, 2014, 4:41 pm
#5682
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: LAX/BUR
Posts: 525
All I was saying is that when you average out what they're giving the small percentage of people who are canceling and then gaining $200 + 100,000 miles for no annual fee with the people who don't cancel, run up ridiculous bills and have to pay 20+% of interest, and the people who don't even meet the minimum spending and don't get any bonus, they're not losing. If they were losing they wouldn't be doing this. You can't win every single time.
May 15, 2014, 4:44 pm
#5683
Suspended
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ORD
Programs: AA, UA, AS, DL, BA, F9, IHG Plat, HH Gold, CC Gold, SPG Gold, MR Silver
Posts: 1,786
May 15, 2014, 4:48 pm
#5684
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: LAX/BUR
Posts: 525
I found the person who posted the first information about 75K and kept reading for a few pages after that and couldn't find anything relating to little credit history and this card.
May 15, 2014, 4:49 pm
#5685
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: LAX/BUR
Posts: 525
I doubt you'll be able to cancel card 1 because I'd imagine it's past 37 days since the annual fee closed. I don't think it'll really matter which you close between 2 and 3. If 2 is between 30-37 days after the annual fee posted, I'd probably close the 3rd just to guarantee you'll have no issues.