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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 12:01 am
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BJ v. SH

To the best of my knowledge, this matter has never been debated (in its own thread) on FT. As such, here goes (IMO):

-for tourists that need to pick one over the other, Beijing wins by a country mile
-During Shanghai's construction boom, Beijing was better, and during Beijing's construction boom, Shanghai was better
-Beijing people are nicer (and inherently cooler), but Shanghai people (including the expats) tend to be smarter --> interesting conversations
-Shanghai has better food
-the shear scale of Shanghai can be overwhelming at times --> we need our spa time
-it is easier to fetch taxis in Shanghai
-I loathed Shanghai during the aftermath of the "Tom Cruise" era, which made the city "trendy", but most of those obnoxious people are back in New York and Taipei now
-Shanghai smells worse
-Beijing has better water
-From Shanghai, I can fly to HK and back for $200... compared with $600 in the case of Beijing

Having gotten all that off of my chest, I am inclined to proclaim that Shanghai wins by a hair. But, there really isn't any need to compare; we can enjoy both cities, thanks to the new train. In fact, I'm in the process of crafting my next 12 month plan and am thinking about a 50-50 split.
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 1:01 am
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-SH has two very good & modern airports (PVG & SHA) with the new train going to one of them-SHA.
- Over the water air fares to BJ are generally lower than to SH on the major airlines, & i am not sure why, but they are.
- As said, BJ is the government & academia center of china, & SH is truly the business hub of china/asia.
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 1:27 am
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Originally Posted by Jiatong
- Over the water air fares to BJ are generally lower than to SH on the major airlines, & i am not sure why, but they are.

I'm guessing that your best friend doesn't have an amazing apartment in Hong Kong. If you want go anywhere else, you should use miles.

ETA: HK is the place I want to go most often. It's cheap to fly from Shanghai to HK, but PEK-HKG is very expensive.
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 2:59 am
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My picks:

Transportation - Shanghai. Beijing traffic is horrible, subway too crowded.
Food - Beijing IMO, though I love Shanghainese food.
Sightseeing - Beijing, no contest. Shanghai does have the Bund/WFC.
Shopping - Shanghai, though Beijing has it's spots.
Friendliness - Beijing, no doubt.
Safety - tie, nudge to Beijing
Development - Shanghai, Expo was just the start
Airports - Shanghai
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 10:31 am
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Shanghainese are less corrupt
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 10:47 am
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Originally Posted by benzemalyonnais
shanghainese are less corrupt
你怎么说?
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 11:11 am
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Originally Posted by moondog
ETA: HK is the place I want to go most often. .
Hong Kong beats every mainland city, in almost all aspects except
for cost of living.
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 11:24 am
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I absolutely do NOT agree that Shanghai has better food. I find Shanghainese cuisine to be rather bland (with a few notable exceptions). Beijing has the entire spectrum of Chinese cooking, along with some really interesting chefs who are inventing great new dishes based on Chinese classics.

I also absolutely do NOT agree that Hong Kong is better than all other Mainland cities. Hong Kong is a terrific place, but its geographic limitations preclude the vast scope and variety of activities available in Beijing (one of my favorite cities in the world). From a cultural perspective, there is far, far more in Beijing than in Hong Kong. Beijing's major drawback is its traffic -- it can take forever to get around, but I'm willing to put it up with it.
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 12:59 pm
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Hong Kong may also be easier for the average tourist as they probably speak better English there than anywhere in China...
That being say I am looking forward to my trip to Beijing so I am throwing myself into unknown territory for me. I just hope I avoid any food poisoning, that is the only thing which will ruin my holiday. I have read up a little bit about what to do and not do so hopefully I'll avoid it. I am not parnaoid or something hehe and I realize that I will get an upset stomach in a way or another.
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 2:00 pm
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Originally Posted by William S
Hong Kong may also be easier for the average tourist as they probably speak better English there than anywhere in China...
That being say I am looking forward to my trip to Beijing so I am throwing myself into unknown territory for me. I just hope I avoid any food poisoning, that is the only thing which will ruin my holiday. I have read up a little bit about what to do and not do so hopefully I'll avoid it. I am not parnaoid or something hehe and I realize that I will get an upset stomach in a way or another.
You'll have a fine time -- Beijing is not at all difficult for the foreigner. As part of the preparation for the Olympics, the government put a lot of effort and money into making Beijing easier for foreign tourists, including things like street signs that are in Chinese and English, educating cab drivers (though Beijing taxis are a whole different subject), etc.

Though you're right about the prevalence of English in Hong Kong, you'll find a surprising number of Beijingers have a little bit of English -- English is a mandatory subject starting in elementary school in China (a notable exception is taxi drivers who, I think, are selected based on their inability to read any language, including Chinese). You'll definitely find English speakers (not fluent, but good enough) in the ticket booths at the various tourist attractions. Some of these locations, e.g. Mao's tomb in Tiananmen, have ticket windows specifically for non-Chinese speakers.

As for food, here's a few simple tips:

1. Don't eat unpeeled raw fruit or vegetables anywhere. Peeled fruit and cooked vegetables in restaurants is fine.

2. Don't eat food from street vendors (the vast majority of it is fine but if you want to be absolutely safe, simply avoid it).

3. When out of your hotel, drink bottled water, only. The water in your hotel should be fine BUT, as with travel to any foreign destination, the mineral content and pH of the water may be different than what you're used to and that alone is enough to cause stomach upset for those who are sensitive to those changes). When in doubt, just order tea.

4. Just in case, carry kaopectate or something similar. There are very effective Chinese medicines for gastric distress available in any pharmacy, but I don't know their names in English (my wife is my live-with translator ).

5. Don't let fear of food poisoning dissuade you from trying the incredible variety of fantastic Chinese cuisines available in Beijing. I've been going to China regularly since 1994 and have only gotten food poisoning once, and that was at a tiny, off-the-beaten path, locals restaurant outside Guilin, and I think that may have been intentional (my wife had a minor altercation with the serving staff).
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 2:16 pm
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Originally Posted by benzemalyonnais
Shanghainese are less corrupt
who paid you to say that??
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 10:59 pm
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Originally Posted by anacapamalibu
Hong Kong beats every mainland city, in almost all aspects except for cost of living.
AMEN
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Old Jun 3, 2011 | 11:15 pm
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Wink

Originally Posted by Jamoldo
AMEN
Hmm based on your location in your profile who paid you saying that? The Hong Kong SAR government?
Nah I know the Hong Kong SAR government corruption is as low as in any western country so I am just joking.
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Old Jun 4, 2011 | 12:14 am
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Originally Posted by anacapamalibu
Hong Kong beats every mainland city, in almost all aspects except
for cost of living.
I think both BJ and SH are better than HK. During my HK stint, I stayed in the Tamar Suite (second best room) at the MO for the better part of six months, and was living the "life". Simply put, daily dim sum and LKF got boring pretty quickly. By contrast, these less comfortable cities in the mainland have managed to retain their edge. Whenever I get tired of their "edge" I prefer to leave the country... Samui was quite nice last week.

ETA: I just realized that this post conflicts with post #3. Basically, my best friend is in the process of relocating to the HK SAR. Since I enjoy hanging out with him, I'll be down there often. But, my presence there will not validate the claim that HK is better.

Last edited by moondog; Jun 4, 2011 at 12:19 am
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Old Jun 4, 2011 | 5:49 am
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Originally Posted by William S
Hmm based on your location in your profile who paid you saying that? The Hong Kong SAR government?
Nah I know the Hong Kong SAR government corruption is as low as in any western country so I am just joking.
Heh - fair enough.

To be fair, I did live in Beijing for two years full time. I love visiting Beijing/Shanghai and miss certain things about Beijing, but to put in better context of why I think HK is better, especially to live full time (adding more fuel to the fire). Off the top of my head:
  • Weather - I love my four seasons, but Beijing is dry, so no real snow/rain, no real fall foliage (leaves just kind of die), SH rarely gets snow and many apartments are not heated, making winter brutal
  • Beaches - many within a 20 minute cab ride and accessible via public transport and usable 9-10 months of the year (ie. can swim), can use free public bbqs year round
  • More international - in its nature. It's an international city (I can see this being debated), people are used to foreigners, global influences etc.
  • Superior public transport - compare subway lines, speed, transferability, etiquette etc
  • Greenery (most of HK's land is actually preserved) - lots of hiking (which I don't do), but nice to look at
  • The food isn't poisoned (melamine, clembuterol, recycled oil etc etc etc)
  • Stuff isn't censored (ie. I can readily get the day's FT at many newsstands/7-11s in the AM, rather than search high and low or wait until 5PM at the hotel), not to mention facebook, twitter, and faster FT
  • Very well connected internationally (ferries, airport)
  • No real foreigner stigma (ie. local newspapers don't have an anti-foreigner bias - try reading some Chinese papers), most people in HK just leave you alone, I've heard enough moans and groans in Mandarin
  • Cost of living comparable lifestyles (outside of rent) is getting cheaper (CNY appreciation and general food inflation in China), and in many cases is more expensive in Beijing/Shanghai
  • General convenience of things - many of the buildings in Central are connected via A/C walkways; midlevels escalator, airport express check-in etc etc etc
  • Uniformly clean cabs that always use the meter (never had to negotiate at 4am)
  • Walkability - parts of Shanghai are walkable, Pudong most certainly is not, Beijing is incredibly pedestrian hostile
  • Air quality - whilst nothing great, far superior
  • Service levels are far superior uniformly and consistent. Not always friendly, but quick and easy.
  • A lot more fixed prices (ie. far less negotiation)
  • Recreation - parks in BJ/SH are much nicer looking but quite concrete but I have not run into many public recreational areas (ie. soccer pitches, tennis courts, running tracks), outside of universities (i could be wrong). Lots of them in HK
  • Tap water is drinkable
  • Low taxes

So what do I miss about Beijing? I miss speaking and hearing Mandarin, the nice people (some - HK is very transaction based, people are nice but always in a rush), hutongs, academia (more scope for academic conversations), food (not just Beijing food, but Xinjiang etc - the latter can be remedied in SZX, which I do quite a bit and is only 1 hour away).

Note I did not say art/music because as nice atr 798 and caochangdi are, I would rarely if ever go to them, ditto music venues such as D-22.

Yes - one could argue HK is "developed" and China is "developing" but we're talking about cities specifically and BJ/SH are quite well developed with rapidly rising incomes, and we're talking about living... To me - HK merges many of the best things of a "western city" with that of an "eastern" city.

Also note that I didn't even bother mentioning nightlife (ie. LKF/Soho/Causeway Bay vs Sanlitun/Houhai, Xintiandi etc etc etc). Although BJ/SH have lots of charming and hidden bars, so does HK - it's just that expats don't bother looking outside of central/wanchai/tst, whereas many in BJ/SH do.

In response to one of Moondog's previous posts. I agree about BJ vs Shanghai. No need to compare as both can be enjoyed.

Last edited by Jamoldo; Jun 4, 2011 at 8:23 am
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