etch5895

Since we breached the subject earlier, and it is somewhat relevant to the discussion of fraudulent entries, here is an interesting article from MSNBC on the considerable ease in which someone can get a fake passport.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22419963/

HRHMom

[QUOTE=PTravel;8956960]It's like that when I travel alone. When I travel with my wife, who is Chinese but a naturalized U.S. citizen with a U.S. passport, we (and usually she) are frequently given the third degree. Recently, returning through SFO, the "DHS Officer" was so abusive (and racist) QUOTE]


What is it with these racists? When I was coming through with a newly adopted baby from China, I walked up, the passport guy pointed his chin at her and his first words were a disdainful "How much you pay for that?" Still makes my blood boil. Does that fit into the category of questions they get to ask to see how I would react?

PTravel

Deleted -- unnecessary rant.

vesicle

As much as I hate having to resort to the courts for anything if I had a 'passport checker' say that to me I would have a lawyer on the phone ASAP.

These thugs need to be taught a lesson.

J-M

To sue them for what? Hurting your feelings?

Steve M

Wow. This thread is just all over the place. Here's how I see it:

As a US citizen, you can't be denied entry into your own country (but they could immediately take you into custody if you have outstanding warrants or as happened to at least one citizen upon arrival, have been declared an enemy combatant). But you do have to establish to the satisfaction of the Immigration inspector that you are the person to whom the passport was issued. One way they might do this is to ask about the various stamps in your passport - presumably you'll be personally familiar with your previous travels in a way that someone else might not be.

Once you've been cleared by the Immigration inspector, you also have to go through a Customs inspection. You must fill out a written declaration and sign it. The Customs inspector may ask additional questions about what's on the form or any number of other things to determine if the declaration is truthful or if there's anything else they need to know about (as others have pointed out, among other things, they're looking for illegal drugs, underage porn, undeclared currency more than $10,000, in addition to dutiable goods not on the declaration). The fact that you're a US citizen and have an inherent right to return to the US has almost no bearing on the Customs inspection. Other than the amount that can be brought back duty free, most of the other Customs issues apply equally to all persons.

Someone brought up the issue of what exactly you have to do beyond filling out a (truthful) written Customs declaration and signing it. I really don't know if they have a right to make you answer questions (I suspect that they really don't), but they definitely have a right to search your belongings and your person without establishing probable cause. They can search your stuff and you personally for any reason, or for no reason at all. It's a totally different situation than a typical interaction with a police officer where some minimum standard of probable cause must be established for a search. And searching your stuff includes going through all the things in your computer (files, browser history, emails, etc) if you have one with you.

As to the types of questions they ask, they're looking for the specific responses, as well as how you respond. Among other things, they're trying to find out if you're presenting a cover story. And if a family is being inspected together and one person is trying to do all the talking, they're likely to want to talk to anyone but that person.

Another thing to note is that although Immigration and Customs inspections are separate, the Customs inspection is really beginning at Immigration (this is true both before and after the merger of the agencies). Keep in mind that the Immigration inspector is the one sitting in front of the computer, having access to whatever is in there about you, and the primary Customs inspector does not have a computer. Part of what Immigration is doing is deciding whether they have information that would indicate the need for more than the normal Customs inspection. It's been reported recently that some of the things you say to the Immigration inspector are getting logged into the computer. Here's a scenario: you go to another country on vacation twice and smuggle drugs back and don't get caught. You then go a third time, but when you come back, you decide to say that you're on business because 3 trips in a year to the same place for vacation would be suspicious, and you say that all your visits were for business. The Immigration guy might have in the computer that you said "vacation" on one of the previous trips, so he's caught you in an inconsistency. That's no reason to deny you entry to the US if you're a US citizen, but it's plenty reason to make sure the Customs guy inspects your belongings.

I think there's a lot going wrong these days in the US, but nothing described in this thread is particularly worrisome nor any different than it's always been. I think the OP is too focused on them trying to deny him entry to his own country, and I don't think that's what's actually happening.

Steve M

This is a bit of a special situation since you were going through pre-clearance in Canada. The treaty between the US and Canada that authorizes this unusual situation (where you clear US Immigration and Customs in Canada before you board the airplane and arrive in the US as a domestic flight) provides that the US agents do not have police powers in Canada. So, unlike at the regular ports of entry, they can't arrest you. They can however call over to a Canadian police officer and have them arrest you, assuming that you're arrestable under Canadian law, and possibly have you extradited to the US.

So, this provides all sorts of unusual situations. For example, what if you're caught during Customs inspection with something that's illegal to import into the US, but legal to possess in Canada? If you were going through inspection at a US airport, they could confiscate the item or arrest you. But they can do neither in this hypothetical situation since the item is legal to possess in Canada. But what they can do is refuse to clear you past the checkpoint with the item.

Now consider this from an immigration standpoint. PTravel was threatened to not be allowed to come home unless he coughed up the identity of his client. If both he and the Immigration agent stood their ground, he probably could have been prevented from coming back in this situation. Although he can't be denied entry to the US as a US citizen, in this situation he's at the Toronto airport and is not on US soil at the point the Immigration inspection is taking place. If the agent stuck to his ground and said "you're not passing my checkpoint" there's probably not much PTravel could do to force his way through (I mean in the legal sense). I guess he could cancel his flight, proceed to a land port of entry, then stand his ground there. At that point he'd be a US citizen on US soil, and they'd have to eventually let him pass once they completed whatever Customs inspection they wanted to do. But at the Toronto airport, he probably has no way under either US or Canadian law to force his way through based on citizenship. I wonder how often situations like this actually happen.

vesicle

If you can't come up with anything better than that you should get some rest and try again.

DanTravels

Thanks! I've often wondered about this myself, since I've re-entered my home country about 13 times now, sometimes after being all over the world for a month or more, and have only gotten stamped back in 2 or 3 of those.

Like most people here, I get pretty standard questions on arrival. If I'm arriving in another country, it's "what do you do, why are you here, and for how long?" The answers come easily now, since what I do is the same (I'm an academic), why I'm there is one of a very short list (visiting family, visiting friends, or going to a conference) and for how long is usually pretty straightforward (I count on my fingers if needed).

Returning to my own country, it's usually "where did you go, for how long, and why?" and again, the answers are pretty easy, although the "where did you go" answer can get a bit lengthy, and often involves a couple different continents.

Customs types generally couldn't care less about my bags. The few cases where another country's customs agents have even wanted to look at them were so uneventful I'm not even sure where I was. The one time I got more than a passing glance was last month, entering the US at PDX (which I hear is nicknamed "Deportland") on the first flight of the morning (from NRT).

Nobody had gotten "randomly selected" ahead of me, so the customs guy wasn't busy, and I had declared $0 as the value of stuff I was bringing in. (I had been at a conference, had bought only postcards, which I had mailed at NRT, and all I had with me that I hadn't taken from the US was a free book from the conference, and a little wind-chime a friend had given me, so I had no numbers to fill in for value.)

He asked if I'd brought anything back purchased during my week or so in Japan; I said no.

He asked what I did; I told him I was an academic (forget whether I showed him my university ID).

He asked if I'd gone on business; I said no, I was attending a conference.

He asked if it was pleasure, then; I said no, I was attending a conference. (It's not work, but it sure ain't fun either!)

After making sure I didn't have any drugs, porn, small Japanese women or whatever in my rollaboard, he let me go.

I wasn't argumentative or anything - I answered honestly and concisely, and sleepily.

Krakajax

Jihad is NOT a good word to be using for reasons which should be obvious.

Asking legal scripted questions in the performance of their official duties, and watching your behavior and reactions to those questions is, and will continue, to be the norm.

Immigration & Customs has the right to ask anything of anyone entering the US. They also have the right to detain you, without benefit of counsel if you become a belligerent smartass.

And, no you cannot SUE them for doing their duty. Only IF they overstep their authority,

Don't believe me? Give them a rash of crap next time that ask those questions when you're travelling to and fro.

Read the Patriot Act. Wait until they start the 10-fingerprints for EVERYBODY travelling entering and re-entering the US...
then you'll really whine.

Steve M

A $0 value on a Customs declaration is always a no-no. Just because you didn't personally pay for it doesn't mean that it has no value. In those situations, you're supposed to put down your best estimate of a fair market value or what you think the giver of a gift paid for it. Duty is based on the value of the item, not on what you paid for it. But if you did buy it yourself, the amount you paid is considered a very good indicator of what it's worth, which is why that's normally what's used.

The question in a Customs inspector's mind when you declare $0 value is that if an item has no value, then why are you bothering to bring it back with you? Even if the primary value is sentimental, always put down some sort of value in a declaration to avoid trouble.

This is especially true if you mail something somewhere. I'm aware of several situations where someone mailed something for business to another country via FedEx or some other express service that needed to get there quickly, and where the item in question was demo software, a DVD of a presentation, or something similar, and where the physical item itself was considered to have essentially no value. If you put $0 as the value on the Customs declaration, you're begging for the item to be held up in Customs, as the officer is likely to ask "why is someone paying to overnight an item half-way around the world that has no value?" But if you put something like $20 or $50 down as the value and a short description that matches, the item will more likely than not sail through Customs as having a proper declared value and being under the dutiable amount, and arrive on time. Of course, you would do such a thing only if there really was no money changing hands for the item itself and you were valuing the media alone and not trying to sneak sold goods past Customs.

Taker Park

[QUOTE=HRHMom;8968819]So how did you react?

vesicle

I will use the word 'jihad' is I like regardless if it offends yours or anyone else's sensibilities...in fact it was to that very end and worked spectacularly.

A government official saying "how much did you pay for that?" to someone with an adopted baby needs to be AND can be disciplined with the right push. The above is NOT the duty of the officer. I don't believe for a second this was some 'behavioral test' but rather it was an @sshole in a position of authority who has an attitude problem. Do you think it is ok if a US citizen who is black upon returning from an African vacation is asked "How was the family's hut spearchucker?"...no different than what the mother above experienced...blatant and very wrong racism. I would have gathered any witnesses and taken contact numbers and statements, filed a complaint before leaving the area, contacted all media outlets and legal counsel in addition to anyone else who could publicize this behavior and the officer's name. It is wrong and should not be tolerated unless you want more of the same.

If you deem this behavior acceptable and wish to gloss over it then that is your choice. You see resistance to being treated wrongly and sometimes illegally as being "belligerent and a smartass"...I see it is standing up for right and I will do so within the boundaries of the law if it is necessary. Regardless of the pigeon hole many people like to put people like me in it isn't like we look for a fight...hell many times I have zero problem..we just react when one is brought to us rather than accept the raping. All systems have some good folks in them and no reasonable person would cause trouble just for the fun of it.

I am not saying bucking the system is easy...but when you are clearly in the right all it will give them in the end is a huge mess. There is only so much that can be swept under the rug these days...contrary to the fear mongers you will not be convicted of a crime or sent off to Cuba for following the law and insisting they do the same.

People who defend the goonish behavior are as sick as they are and I hope they get stuck on the bad end of the very things they accept...poetic justice.

DanTravels

Ah, thanks for clearing that up, Steve. Much appreciated.

polonius

Mostly a good summary, but:

1) you cannot be forced to answer questions, and most certainly the 5th amendment doesn't get suspended just because you are at a border. But again, if you do choose to answer, you can be penalised for not answering truthfully

2) although "probable cause" is not required for "inspection," it IS required for a search. What the difference is between "inspection" and a "search" has been established by a number of court rulings, including U.S. v Arnold, which clearly established that looking into a computer is a "search". That same ruling also established that finding images of nude adult females (which are of course perfectly legal) did not provide "probable cause" to believe that there may be illegal pictures of nude female children. The ruling can be found here.

The important legal principle to understand is that although there is an explicit exception to 4th amendment protections at the border, the exception was created for purposes of controlling who is admitted, for preventing the entry of contraband, and to ensure that goverment revenues due for tariffs and duties are collected. The exception was NOT created to give the government free rein to have a poke around in anything they feel like just because it's a border, even if the FBI, DEA and other agencies have been somewhat successful at exploiting this hole in 4th amendment protection for such purposes. I was once referred for secondary inspection and had an inspector start rifling through a stack of credit and membership cards that was in my briefcase -- I objected successfully to this attempt at searching through these cards because there was no possibility that any of them could have contraband or an undeclared import and therefore they had zero reason to be looking through them.