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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 10:53 am
  #256  
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Originally Posted by Superguy
And what law would the cop be enforcing by telling her to clean up the mess? And, if as claimed, was told to tell the TSO she was sorry?
I'm not personally familiar with the Alexandria Municipal Code and VA laws generally, but I'd imagine there's something in there about littering, and about creating a hazard for others.

As for the apology, I'd agree that would be petty and beyond the cop's authority, but I wouldn't be too disturbed about it if it were true. And remember, "as claimed" is a big caveat when the claimant is Emmerson.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 11:05 am
  #257  
 
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Originally Posted by Superguy
And what law would the cop be enforcing by telling her to clean up the mess? And, if as claimed, was told to tell the TSO she was sorry?
Littering for one. I suspect a disorderly conduct type of charge could be made to stick for another.

Did the cop have the authority to make her apologize? No.
Do cops do things like that all the time? Yes.

Having had some conversations with cops about how they view enforcement, my understanding is this: If they see you kill someone, or steal something you are going to be arrested. But as for really minor things like jaywalking they view these laws as tools that they don't go out of their way to enforce, but will use if there is something else going on (e.g. a rowdy group on a pub crawl where the people involved are causing a disturbance might get ticketed to provide a disincentive for being on the street). Similarly a lot of times if a cop sees someone doing something stupid or dangerous, rather than dealing with the paperwork, they will use the threat of arrest in order to get them to stop doing whatever they are doing and if possible fix whatever they did.

I think that this is what happened in this case. The cop sees the woman pour the water on the floor and (quite reasonably IMHO) decided that the woman was being stupid and threatening the safety of others in her actions. The cop then aggressively goes to the woman and says (more or less) "Hey, that was a stupid thing to do. You are going to clean that up or you are going to jail." At one point the woman seems to just want to walk away, and the cop grabs her shoulder and tells her that she seriously needs to clean up the water or she will go to jail. At this point the cop is not going to let the woman defy her authority. The cop is really annoyed now and makes her apologize to the TSO before she can leave.

So while the cop has no authority to order her to apologize to the TSO, she did have the threat of arrest to make it in the woman's best interests to comply. Probably in most cases the humiliation would cause the person not to do something stupid like poor water on a polished stone floor of heavily traveled hallways (and likely that was a large part of the cops motivation). In this particular case it did not work out that way.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 11:11 am
  #258  
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So the woman spilled water on the floor? Who cares? Call a janitor and have it cleaned up.

In the second video at 1:48 the woman is grabbed by the female LEO. She was walking away and was stopped by the LEO. She has now been illegally detained.

My favorite part of the video is the older grey haired TSA agent at the bottom of the screen. At 8:55 he inadvertently gestures to a guy to stop and move to the side. The passenger complies and then TSA agent makes what can only be seen as a rude gesture telling the passenger to move along.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 11:33 am
  #259  
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Originally Posted by fly-yul
So the woman spilled water on the floor? Who cares? Call a janitor and have it cleaned up.

In the second video at 1:48 the woman is grabbed by the female LEO. She was walking away and was stopped by the LEO. She has now been illegally detained....
Illegally detained? Emmerson had just littered and created a hazard to others. Assuming that such actions are infractions (very likely), she can be legally detained.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 11:41 am
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Originally Posted by fly-yul
So the woman spilled water on the floor? Who cares? Call a janitor and have it cleaned up.

In the second video at 1:48 the woman is grabbed by the female LEO. She was walking away and was stopped by the LEO. She has now been illegally detained.

My favorite part of the video is the older grey haired TSA agent at the bottom of the screen. At 8:55 he inadvertently gestures to a guy to stop and move to the side. The passenger complies and then TSA agent makes what can only be seen as a rude gesture telling the passenger to move along.
Generally speaking a forcible detention of a person requires that reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed by them exists. In this case I'd say littering.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 11:46 am
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Originally Posted by majorwibi
The location in question appears to be the gates where Delta and Southwest fly out of and if that is the case then I know that hallway where the incident occurs tends to be rather noisy; which I assume is because of the way it is setup.

Chances are a mic did pickup the sound but probably also picked up a ton of other noise.
The TSA report says center pier, which is the UA/AA terminal. Delta is the south pier.

Also, Southwest doesnt fly from DCA.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 12:31 pm
  #262  
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Originally Posted by law dawg
Generally speaking a forcible detention of a person requires that reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed by them exists. In this case I'd say littering.
Littering???!!! Maybe they should have handcuffed her too!!!
They wanted to mess with this poor lady because she did not respect the authority. Abuse of power 100%. Yes spilled some water on the floor. Who cares??? LEO should "have said have a nice day" and called for a janitor. Why escalate the situation?
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 12:40 pm
  #263  
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I think the LEO made a big mistake grabbing the woman. Happily for the woman, the video tape TSA recklessly published on their website clearly shows this mistake.

If I were the woman, I would sue the WMAA.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 12:46 pm
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Originally Posted by fly-yul
Littering???!!! Maybe they should have handcuffed her too!!!
They wanted to mess with this poor lady because she did not respect the authority. Abuse of power 100%. Yes spilled some water on the floor. Who cares??? LEO should "have said have a nice day" and called for a janitor. Why escalate the situation?
Actually he was cutting her a break. What he should have done was cited her.

He probably gave her an option - clean up your mess or get the ticket.

Abuse of power? Hardly. Is it your position that someone should be allowed to throw away whatever they want wherever they want? And if not, where would you like to draw the line?

Is dumping a beverage on the floor cool with you? Can I do it at your house? Just a little puddle on the living room floor? How about on a supermarket isle? Is that good in your book?

You don't get to do whatever you want and then walk away. Had it been an accident that's one thing, but she deliberately dumped it. She even shook it to make sure she got the last drops.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 12:46 pm
  #265  
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Originally Posted by dhuey
I'm not personally familiar with the Alexandria Municipal Code and VA laws generally, but I'd imagine there's something in there about littering, and about creating a hazard for others.
I think that'd be a stretch for littering.

As for the apology, I'd agree that would be petty and beyond the cop's authority, but I wouldn't be too disturbed about it if it were true. And remember, "as claimed" is a big caveat when the claimant is Emmerson.
I take it with as much salt as with anything coming out of TSA.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 12:52 pm
  #266  
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Originally Posted by fly-yul
Littering???!!! Maybe they should have handcuffed her too!!!
They wanted to mess with this poor lady because she did not respect the authority. Abuse of power 100%. Yes spilled some water on the floor. Who cares??? LEO should "have said have a nice day" and called for a janitor. Why escalate the situation?
Eh, you are thinking that TSA exists as a SERVICE to the traveling public rather than a bunch of bored bullies looking for a fight?!!?? Come now!

And let me amplify that point: I think the WMAA and TSA officers were bored and looking for a fight. And when that woman did not, in particular the female WMAA officer, respect her authority she (the LEO) completely unnecessarily escalated the situation.

Asking her to clean up the water was both stupid as well as outside the LEO's AUTHORI-TIE in any case:

Firstly, it made for a more dangerous situation than the water itself; now you have distracted LEOs, a stroller blocking the secure exit, a toddler wandering around a semi-secure area and a woman on her hands and knees with paper towels. The correct response was to call a janitor. Duh.

Secondly, it was well outside of any authority the LEO had. As others have noted a cop's job is to warn, arrest or leave us the hell alone. The appropriate punishment and recompense (if any) for spilling the water is a matter for a judge, NEVER an LEO to decide.

Finally, it goes straight to the mission of TSA and the LEOs. Rather than treating the woman like a customer, they treated her like a criminal from the outset. I only wish the woman had taken the 4 ounces of water and poured them on her own head as a form of protest. Now THAT would have been COOL!

Last edited by kokonutz; Jun 19, 2007 at 1:01 pm
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 12:57 pm
  #267  
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Originally Posted by law dawg
Actually he was cutting her a break. What he should have done was cited her.
He should have and left it at that. Probably a summary offense at best.

He probably gave her an option - clean up your mess or get the ticket.
Which I think is in appropriate.

Abuse of power? Hardly. Is it your position that someone should be allowed to throw away whatever they want wherever they want? And if not, where would you like to draw the line?

Is dumping a beverage on the floor cool with you? Can I do it at your house? Just a little puddle on the living room floor? How about on a supermarket isle? Is that good in your book?
Forgive me for laughing at that considering which agency you work for.

I've actually spilled stuff in stores and they cleaned it up with no problems. That's what they pay janitors and stuff to do.

The floor was no more of a hazard than the floor getting mopped (which probably doesn't happen often on those nasty airport floors. Put up a cone until the janitor comes.

You don't get to do whatever you want and then walk away. Had it been an accident that's one thing, but she deliberately dumped it. She even shook it to make sure she got the last drops.
Cite her and have it cleaned up. That would have been appropriate and probably more effective. Also, much more professional than making the offender grovel. Or do LEO's get their jollies from doing that kind of thing?

She may be a b***h, but I'm sure not nearly as bad as a lot of other criminals out there. There are ways to cut breaks without crossing the line like this cop did.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 1:05 pm
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Originally Posted by kokonutz
Secondly, it was well outside of any authority the LEO had. As others have noted a cop's job is to warn, arrest or leave us the hell alone. The appropriate punishment and recompense (if any) for spilling the water is a matter for a judge, NEVER an LEO to decide.
This is incorrect. They can ask. You don't need authority to ask. And if she refused there's nothing they could have done about it except levy whatever charge they would have immediately after her act, if any.

Asking is not outside your authority. Punishing for failure to act may, but the mere asking? Nope.
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 1:11 pm
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Originally Posted by Superguy
He should have and left it at that. Probably a summary offense at best.
My guess too.

Forgive me for laughing at that considering which agency you work for.
The TSA are habitual litterers?

I've actually spilled stuff in stores and they cleaned it up with no problems. That's what they pay janitors and stuff to do.
Sure. I'd bet, though, that if you did it on purpose at the checkout as an act of protest you're get a different response.

The floor was no more of a hazard than the floor getting mopped (which probably doesn't happen often on those nasty airport floors. Put up a cone until the janitor comes.
Sure. The point is you don't get to do whatever the hell you want because you're mad with no consequences.

Cite her and have it cleaned up. That would have been appropriate and probably more effective. Also, much more professional than making the offender grovel. Or do LEO's get their jollies from doing that kind of thing?
It kind of depends on the situation. LEOs are human like everyone else and if you take attitude with them they may take it back. Some days are better than others.

Personally I bet this LEO doesn't give many people a break next time after all this. Its easier to just cite them.

She may be a b***h, but I'm sure not nearly as bad as a lot of other criminals out there. There are ways to cut breaks without crossing the line like this cop did.
I don't think the cop crossed the line. Either way the lady had to stick around, either to clean her mess up or receive her citation.

And of course they are worse out there. She's not a criminal, she's just a lady having a temper-tantrum. Still, though, that doesn't legitimize her behavior.

As a (ex) LEO she should know this.

The bigger question to me is, if she's an ex-LEO (Secret Service) why does she still have creds and a badge?
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Old Jun 19, 2007 | 1:11 pm
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Originally Posted by law dawg
Asking is not outside your authority. Punishing for failure to act may, but the mere asking? Nope.
You were there, and can state categorically that Emmerson was merely asked ? Asked in a such a manner that it was clear she had a choice ?

Nobody was asked to do anything here. How many more times ?
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