WillCAD

I wouldn't characterize what FliesWay2Much said as "rude", exactly. It was blunt, and it may have even been tactless, but I don't think it qualifies as rude.

However, it was an admonishment, not advice. He wasn't offering TSAPressSec some friendly pointers on something, he was taking the guy to task for what we can all see is a pretty lame attempt at genuine public discourse.

sbrower

I think this is a philosophical argument. I don't think we will see any more participation by that poster (the TSA rep) in the near future.

WillCAD

Yeah, I think we scared him away, what with our refusal to accept his company line BS as gospel.

jkhuggins

Or, perhaps, he's doing exactly what people asked him to do: going back to talk with folks in TSA who know the "real answers" instead of the "party line" answers.

Someone from TSA joins this forum and people jump all over him for his posts. Then he stops posting in the forum and people jump all over him for not posting. Would it have been better had he never started posting here at all?

I'm no fan of the way TSA conducts its public relations operations ... but let's give this fellow credit for jumping into the den of lions that is TS&S. And, perhaps, if we continue to treat him courteously, we might actually both gain from the interaction. (There have been TSA employees as a part of this forum who have been far, far worse participants ...)

jtodd

I agree with this for the most part. But I must say, the interaction in this thread is much more polite than what I, and many others, have had to put up with from the "official" TSA representatives that we get to meet face to face whenever we fly(e.g. no crotch chopping, yelling or threats).

I happen to have received my passport card and need to make a trip shortly that will require flying, my first flight in more than a year. I will report back how I fared.

jkhuggins

What? You're actually going to contribute actual facts to a forum on the Internet? Heresy!

Seriously ... we'll look forward to your report.

sbrower

I was actually surprised (and pleased) to see that the response to the TSA participation was consistently VERY polite. But it was VERY precise. And a spokesperson for the federal government can rarely respond to intelligent, precise questions in a satisfactory manner.

RadioGirl

I won't repeat what I wrote in the travelling with $15K thread but let's be realistic about what Ross can achieve here. I agree with jtodd and sbrower that people have been surprisingly polite. I don't think we should hound Ross or try to drive him away. But I ask you to consider exactly what benefit we stand to gain from his participation.

jkhuggins hopes that we might get "real answers". Why aren't the real answers already on the website, to which we have been referred time and again? Will they become more real if a TSA representative tells us the rule (again) or directs us to the website (again)?

Is anyone here in doubt of TSA's official policy on using the passport card as ID? That's not the problem. The problem is the inconsistent implementation from screener to screener, from airport to airport. And the lack of accountability if screeners refuse to accept it.

Is anyone in doubt of TSA's official policy on medication, breast milk, insulin pumps, adult diapers or ostomy bags? The problem is the inconsistent implementation from screener to screener, from airport to airport. And the lack of accountability when screeners make up other rules, and their supervisors back them up. Stacey Armato's problem was not the lack of a TSA press secretary to tell her whether breast milk was allowed or not. Tom Sawyer didn't face humiliation (twice) due to incomplete answers on FT about transiting a checkpoint with an ostomy bag.

TSA needs to address the inconsistency and the lack of accountability, not just provide another source of "how it should be".

MSPeconomist

I don't get why folks in this thread are talking about acceptable ID for domestic air travel. AFAIK the ID you show to TSA doesn't depend on whether you are flying international or domestic, right? For international departures, you must show your passport to an airline agent but you should still be able to go through TSA security with the same ID as for a domestic flight, including a state driver license, passport card, GE card, etc. Just because you are flying international, you are NOT required to show your passport to TSA. Or am I missing some other rule on this?

Also, AFAIK if you have a domestic connecting flight before an international segment, when you show the TSA document checker your departing boarding pass from the first airport, I don't think they even see that you also have an international flight unless you show that boarding pass also. Now I'm going to try to find an old boarding pass to check this and see what is printed on the domestic boarding pass when doing OLCI.

RadioGirl

I believe you are absolutely right in the first sentence. The ID check (which is absurd in itself, but that's for another thread) is simply intended to show that the passenger is the person named on the BP, not that the passenger will be allowed entry to another country.

But there have been a number of reports here that some screeners at some checkpoints at some airports have demanded to see a passport when the passenger holds a BP for an international flight. These screeners have insisted that a passport is required for international travel (true) so it's required for transiting the checkpoint (false).

See my post immediately above yours. It's not the "rules", it's the execution. (Cue Spiff. )

jkhuggins

The first step in fixing a problem is recognizing that the problem exists.

My uninformed and completely speculative opinion is that, inside the Beltway, TSA thinks that the "real answers" are all on the website, and that anyone who doesn't understand that simply isn't reading the website. (We've seen that attitude here from some selected TSA employees over the years.) Anyone who holds that opinion is likely to disregard any complaints as being invalid.

Every now and then, though, we encounter a TSA employee who will actually listen to criticism, consider it, and realize that perhaps the public statements of TSA aren't as definitive as they need to be. In many cases, the TSA employee is someone relatively low on the food chain who can't really do anything about it. Ross appears to be higher on the food chain, and might be able to actually have an effect. As with all things, actions are more meaningful than intentions.

TSA has many "real problems". Yes, the inconsistency of the TSA screening experience at the checkpoint is a major problem. That does not invalidate the claim that the inconsistency of information provided to the general public about TSA screening procedures is a major problem. The two problems are not identical, but are certainly related.

Well, we've heard any number of reports here over the years where overzealous TDCs, seeing an international destination on a passenger's boarding pass, improperly insist that the passenger produce a passport at the TSA checkpoint in order to pass through screening. As RadioGirl points out, the problem isn't TSA's policies, but how those policies are carried out.

RadioGirl

With that, I agree completely.
That is, as you say, your opinion. My opinion is that after more than 6 years of the TSA blog, after numerous bad publicity events (patting down children, Nadine Hayes, Stacey Armato, Thomas Sawyer, Sharon Cissna, Lenore Zimmerman, Steve Beirfeldt - I could go on but you get the idea), after multiple scathing reports from the GAO, even the dimmest bulb at TSA HQ cannot be unaware that people are confused and aggravated both by the lack of consistency in advice and the lack of consistency in application.

Ross has confidently told us that every complaint goes to TSA leadership at the airport in question. Now either that is true or not. If it's true, there is no way that TSA management can be unaware of people's confusion. If it's not true, TSA doesn't care whether people understand procedures or not. Neither of those is a healthy option.

I am willing to give Ross the benefit of the doubt that he intends to "listen to criticism, consider it, and realize that perhaps the public statements of TSA aren't as definitive as they need to be." I am less confident that a Press Secretary has the authority to effect a meaningful change. If I'm wrong and a year from now we don't have anything to discuss in this forum because TSA policies are all (a) crystal clear and (b) uniformly applied, I'll be more than happy to admit my mistake.

I will point out that in 2008, the first year of its operation, the TSA blog assembled and "answered" a "Top 10 Questions" list. (This despite the fact that there were already dozens of unanswered questions posed on the blog by that time.) The top four questions involved the authority and effectiveness of ID checks, questions very similar to those people have asked Ross this week. Others in the top 10 asked about airports adding their own restrictions, gate screening, and rude screeners - again, similar to questions still being asked. TSA's answers in 2008 were singularly unhelpful. Perhaps Ross can do better, but it's unrealistic to believe that TSA doesn't know people have such questions in the first place.

A year later they called for the "Top five questions". Several people, including a "J Huggins," submitted questions which were very similar to the earlier "Top 10" including a few on ID checks and gate screening. Can you seriously claim that TSA HQ is not aware that people have questions that are not answered by the blog or the website?
Again, completely agree. I meant the main problem in relation to having someone from TSA come answer questions here.
Consistency of information is easily fixed if management wants to do so. Consistency of execution is much harder to fix. But TSA have for years claimed it's all "deliberate inconsistency" to thwart the bad guys rather than taking some fairly basic steps, so it's hard to believe they want to fix either problem.

chollie

I believe Ross when he says complaints that actually make it into the system are forwarded to individual TSA airport leadership.

I do not for one moment believe that airport leadership sees the complaints, asks about them, compiles data on them, tries to analyze the data and address issues. At best, the majority are dismissed out of hand or given an irrelevant automated reply. The majority of the few who submit a second time, indicating that the previous cr*p form answer was irrelevant and unhelpful, are dismissed by a low-level flack with the usual boilerplate language.

If and when a complaint gains attention on the national level, in the media, then and only then does the FSD actually know or care what is going on. I say 'care', but that just means 'orders someone to shut it down, fast'.

How else to explain repeated problems with baggage theft at EWR and high rates of punitive retaliatory behavior at PHX, just to name two?

STBCypriot

Spot on Radio Girl

Traveling from JFK-AUH, the TSA ID checker at T4 in JFK asked me for my passport when I presented him with my FL Driver's license along with my boarding pass. I believe his exact words were "you need a passport for this flight, may I see it?" My response was "Yes, I know I need a passport and I have one but I have presented you with a TSA-approved ID. You do not need to see my passport." End of conversation and I was allowed to progress.

jkhuggins

And that awareness can be easily explained away by saying "gee, we're doing everything right, it's all those silly passengers who are wrong". Being aware of the confusion and aggravation experienced by passengers at TSA checkpoints doesn't mean that they believe that there is a problem which needs to be solved.

I have no reason to doubt that its true. What Ross is (presumably) testifying to is that data is being exchanged between various offices. As chollie points out, though, knowing that airport leadership has the data doesn't mean they've actually looked at it, much less considered the possibility that the data indicates a problem.

Yeah, that was me .

Again, I return to my prior point: being aware of customer complaints does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that TSA has problems to be resolved. The former is necessary to generate the latter, but is certainly not sufficient.

Consistency of execution would not be that hard to fix, if TSA chose to make it a priority. I can walk into a McDonald's or an Applebees or a U.S. Postal Service office anywhere in the US and have largely the same consistent experience that I have at those institutions in my hometown. It should not be that difficulty for TSA to do the same.