Should TSA agents be armed?
Nov 9, 2013 | 8:48 am
#211
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The classic misunderstanding. You summed it up well.
As a friend said in discussions in other forums that were trending towards politics or religion - understanding that the traditional debate/discussion/education/persuasion process will never work on articles of faith - "If somebody 'gets it', no explanation is necessary. If they don't, no explanation will be sufficient."
As a friend said in discussions in other forums that were trending towards politics or religion - understanding that the traditional debate/discussion/education/persuasion process will never work on articles of faith - "If somebody 'gets it', no explanation is necessary. If they don't, no explanation will be sufficient."
Nov 9, 2013 | 9:31 am
#212
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A TSO has as much right to self defense and bear arms as I do, and the courts have decided I do not have a right to bear arms in the sterile area.
So neither should a TSO.
So neither should a TSO.
Nov 9, 2013 | 9:48 am
#213
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From ALIENS: "What are we going to attack them with? Harsh language?"
If LEOs are trained that people on the street are allowed their 1st Amendment rights to mutter whatever, why do TSO's delicate natures entitle them to protection against verbal interactions? Let them wear earplugs if the workplace is aurally stressful.
If LEOs are trained that people on the street are allowed their 1st Amendment rights to mutter whatever, why do TSO's delicate natures entitle them to protection against verbal interactions? Let them wear earplugs if the workplace is aurally stressful.
Nov 9, 2013 | 10:23 am
#214
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From ALIENS: "What are we going to attack them with? Harsh language?"
If LEOs are trained that people on the street are allowed their 1st Amendment rights to mutter whatever, why do TSO's delicate natures entitle them to protection against verbal interactions? Let them wear earplugs if the workplace is aurally stressful.
If LEOs are trained that people on the street are allowed their 1st Amendment rights to mutter whatever, why do TSO's delicate natures entitle them to protection against verbal interactions? Let them wear earplugs if the workplace is aurally stressful.
Nov 9, 2013 | 12:26 pm
#215
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Last edited by MikeMpls; Nov 24, 2013 at 9:54 pm Reason: removing all my recent TS/S content since any effort here seems to be unappreciated
Nov 9, 2013 | 12:45 pm
#216
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Nov 9, 2013 | 1:37 pm
#217
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On the one side of the table we have Spiff & pals. Now I happen to agree with you, but ...
On the other side of the table are the airlines, who were relieved of an enormous cost center by the creation of TSA after 9/11. The airlines' expenses for passenger screening are fixed at what they were paying then, and not adjusted for inflation. TSA also relieves the airlines of liability for failures in passenger screening. The airlines love TSA, not for what TSA does but for what the airlines don't have to provide and underwrite.
At the end of the day, which lobby will prevail? A bunch of the disgruntled passengers? Or the airlines, which will threaten economic disaster and failure if we return to the status quo before 9/11? In the end, an effective economic boycott of American airlines is the only protest that will work. As long as it hurts less to keep TSA, the airlines will ensure that TSA stays.
On the other side of the table are the airlines, who were relieved of an enormous cost center by the creation of TSA after 9/11. The airlines' expenses for passenger screening are fixed at what they were paying then, and not adjusted for inflation. TSA also relieves the airlines of liability for failures in passenger screening. The airlines love TSA, not for what TSA does but for what the airlines don't have to provide and underwrite.
At the end of the day, which lobby will prevail? A bunch of the disgruntled passengers? Or the airlines, which will threaten economic disaster and failure if we return to the status quo before 9/11? In the end, an effective economic boycott of American airlines is the only protest that will work. As long as it hurts less to keep TSA, the airlines will ensure that TSA stays.
You can add free liability coverage and other special perks to the list.
I concur, but made a slight change for emphasis.
Nov 9, 2013 | 1:39 pm
#218
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Nov 9, 2013 | 2:14 pm
#219
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I don't believe for a second that the TSA as an organization ever had a "customer service" orientation.
We, the passengers, are the enemy - not "customers."
Nov 9, 2013 | 7:20 pm
#220
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I think your reading of me as someone who's not a member of "us" is incorrect. I've been plenty critical of TSA in this forum. And I started my remarks on this thread stating that I was against turning TSOs into LEOs.
What I was trying to point out is that trying to turn TSOs into legitimate LEOs would involve such an expenditure of time and money, and be accessible to so few TSOs, that it might actually demonstrate how far TSOs are from LEOs: a point that many of us here feel is lost on the public in general (and TSA in particular). Deputizing TSOs might actually work to "our" advantage in the long run.
But clearly I'm making too subtle a point. Off to goalie's penalty box I go ...
What I was trying to point out is that trying to turn TSOs into legitimate LEOs would involve such an expenditure of time and money, and be accessible to so few TSOs, that it might actually demonstrate how far TSOs are from LEOs: a point that many of us here feel is lost on the public in general (and TSA in particular). Deputizing TSOs might actually work to "our" advantage in the long run.
But clearly I'm making too subtle a point. Off to goalie's penalty box I go ...
Nov 9, 2013 | 7:47 pm
#222
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Sure, it's no guarantee of anything. There are "rogue cops" just like there are "rogue TSOs". But that's why I offered the gedankenexperiment.
Nov 9, 2013 | 8:30 pm
#223
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Long thread with good info so this may have been said and I missed it:
When you change the administrative function to one in which firearms are introduced creating a quasi-LEO organization, the constitutionally permissible universe of allowable behaviors is greatly reduced. The only reason the TSA exists as is does is the loosened protections of the administrative search doctrine and its court allowed carve outs to 4th Amendment protections that law enforcement officers generally do not have. There are exceptions, random sobriety checks for instance, but they are few and and tightly regulated. The TSA as we know it would cease to exist with LEO type regulatory oversight.
That may or may not be a good thing.
When you change the administrative function to one in which firearms are introduced creating a quasi-LEO organization, the constitutionally permissible universe of allowable behaviors is greatly reduced. The only reason the TSA exists as is does is the loosened protections of the administrative search doctrine and its court allowed carve outs to 4th Amendment protections that law enforcement officers generally do not have. There are exceptions, random sobriety checks for instance, but they are few and and tightly regulated. The TSA as we know it would cease to exist with LEO type regulatory oversight.
That may or may not be a good thing.
Nov 9, 2013 | 8:50 pm
#224
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I don't want TSA shut down. I want the federalized screeners disbanded and that mission turned back over to airports and airlines with private sector employees, leaving TSA with a small cadre at each airport for supervision.
Nov 9, 2013 | 9:09 pm
#225
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You do realize that you're talking about handing guns to personnel who, as a group, have proven entirely incapable of remembering that photography is NOT prohibited at the checkpoint, right?