dougiebgood

It's not just Flyertalk, but a TON of places online.

And I think what gets me most is that people have no idea just how much this whole thing is "security theater." If these procedures really helped, I'd be less opposed, but they really don't. 9/11, the underwear bomber, and the shoe bomber could have easily happened under the current TSA procedures.

I spoke to a scientist a while back who gave me some really scary scenarios. Hell, I'm an anamatuer magician and have come come up with ways to easily get around the TSA's screenings (none of which I'd repeat online).

The whole thing is based on politics, and people justifying their jobs by being able to say they've put policies into place. That's what I feel is the biggest problem, and that's the biggest reason I'll choose not to go along with it.

exbayern

Dougie, I don't know if you have seen this video. I have often posted the link but cannot seem to find the one with English subtitles at the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrKvweNugnQ

Werner Gruber (the large man) is a famous Austrian scientist, sort of Austria's Bill Nye but with real credentials. This video is from a popular German show which aired weeks after the shoe bombing, and which was the start of the anti-scanner movement in Germany. (The test there was deemed an absolute failure)

The German experience including that show are something which I try to use to educate scared Americans about why the scanners are a complete waste of money, and absolutely ineffectual.

Some posters here have tried to educate via various fora. I don't know how successful they have been, frankly. Sometimes the audience is too scared to hear the message, and sometimes we may be too hyperbolic and turn them off the message. But if the efforts of some here have changed just a few minds then I suppose that is a success.

Exleftseat

There are Holocaust memorial days nearly every day all over the world. They teach people to not just follow, but think before about the consequences ( I am simplifying this a lot just to make you understand ). All over Germany and Austria , Nazi or not, everyone asked answered that they were just following orders. That's the case in today's U.S., everybody always follows orders, never questions them and is devoid of the ability to make any individual decision opposing the given order. That's why 99 percent of fliers follow given orders, screamed orders, to go through the cancer machines. They either don't know about the options, don't want to know about the options or more importantly fear reprisals. They not only follow orders, it has became a habit to do so. No one questions authority any longer, I really believe that no one cares. If someone tries to be non-complying and chooses the opt out method, he/she will get exactly what the Government tells and warns you of : The Invasive Pat Down". Your genitals will be touched, your hair will be stroked, the insides of your collar and your waistband will be touched. Then the gloves will be tested and heaven forbid, you had explosives on you ( I had a package of Salami, which triggered it ). We who object are made enemies of the state, however, Mrs. EX and I have no fear. We are on the opt out side every time we fly. There is no other choice for us. Maybe, however uncertain it is, though, one day our actions will have contributed in some part to the end of this ongoing tragedy called security theatre.

Michael El

Amazing post.....I couldn't have said it better myself. This security theatre stuff is a very slippery slope to full Government take over of our lives.

StanSimmons

You are SO wrong about that... One of your gropers intentionally struck me in the gonads during a retaliatory opt-out "pat down", causing pain and swelling. Pain and swelling is "trauma", the root word of "traumatized". The TSA absolutely "traumatized" me.

If such an assault happens again, I fully expect to be arrested because I will defend myself from assault, to the best of my abilities, no matter what kind of uniform or fake badge said attacker is wearing. Luckily, for the past several months I've been able to avoid flying and being forced into that situation.

I have chosen to avoid airports and flying as much as possible so that I don't have to deal with thugs in blue shirts. The fact that there are some good people in the TSA doesn't even begin to balance out the creeps, crooks, thieves, morons, jerks, slackers, thugs, power-trippers, and sex-offenders that are among your front line people.

exbayern

And then there are people like Arthur Frommer, who have a loyal following of clueless leisure travellers, supporting the scanners.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/pract...-scanners.html

(Frommers also advocates dressing up to get an upgrade but many people listen to his advice/the advice of his website. And according to Frommers, I have been living 100km distance from where I should have been)

CelticPax

A close friend has been a sounding board for all my arguments against the TSA. He recently "had" to fly to Florida for a quick weekend trip with his parents that was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity (friends loaned them a beach house for a month).

He used some of the tips I'd given him as well as his own impulses to get through security. #1: even though he hadn't flown for over 5-10 years, he went through the "experienced" line. Since he knew from me that you have to take out liquids, etc., he was able to wing it.

He didn't even have to take off his shoes, and only went through the metal detector. In his whiz through security, he didn't see any hair-patting, genital groping, or hands inside pants. The worst he saw was some feel-ups with the back of the hand.

The screeners he briefly interacted with, were pleasant.

From traversing two aiports and getting lucky, he's now gone from someone who also agreed the TSA was security theatre that was dragging down this country to almost a pro-TSA supporter.

He mentioned how the screeners really seemed to believe in what they were doing and that, given his experience, it can't be that bad.

I've pointed out that the Brown Shirts, etc. were generally young, driven people who really felt they were doing real good. And more importantly, pointed out that taking a small, unrepresentative sample (2 airport trips) compared to all the business and frequent traveler posts I see on here and in the news, and that you shouldn't extrapolate from his small sample set.

He conceded the law of small numbers a bit, but generally thinks the TSA isn't all that bad now.

It's a dark aspect of human nature that we're fighting here that is bigger than just the TSA issue, and I agree, it is a very difficult battle.

-------------------

As for me, I haven't flown since 2008. If I do go off-contintent, I am planning to drive to Canada and fly from/to there. Even then, I'm not sure I can get a plane with emergency oxygen in the bathrooms. I liken it to boarding an ocean liner that got rid of some of its lifeboats "in the interest of safey." So I'm not sure that's even viable now...

Recreational flying in the U.S., other than charter, is a no-go for me. I hope I can be rich enough to get around these safety issues in the future, but that doesn't help others.

Like other posters, I too, have some fear of being put on a higher government list.

Michael El

I like the brown shirt analogy and I think the TSA is moving to be a kinder and gentler organization so that the sheeple start supporting the stripping away of our rights.

PS~we're already on the gov't list so fly as you see fit.

exbayern

Very true, CelticPax.

On the aforementioned leisure websites, there were people denying that TSA had any issues, and pointed out that their last flight was uneventful. Quite often that 'last flight' was prior to the most recent changes, prior to the introduction of the scanners, and followed their average pattern of a flight every 1-2 years.

I have seen people who fly four SEGMENTS a year (ie one trip, with a layover each direction) calling themselves frequent flyers. They also consider themselves the experts in their circle of family/friends/coworkers because they travel more frequently than others.

And let us not forget that many, many FTers are not against the scanners, and do not have negative feelings against the TSA.

OverThereTooMuch

Because the anonymity of the internet allows many people to pretend to be something they're not. People post about the sorts of things that they wish they were able to do in real life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

WChou

IMHO, most people who talk a big game are lazy, cowards, or a combination of both. When push comes to shove, many fall back to what is convenient. I often see people grumble about the body scanners and intrusive security yet they follow the crowd.

A few weeks ago some big guy from the state "you don't mess with" was talking about how he hates big brother, the erosion of rights, and massive government waste. By the time we got near the WTMD, the line closed and everyone fed into the scanners. I opted out and he sheepishly went in. As I was getting my grope down, he failed the scan and was receiving a resolution patdown. He just hung his head low and accepted what happened without a word. Once at the gate he was suddenly the all American hero again. Got sick of his empty words and called him out on it. He folded like a cheap tent again.

If a TSO chats me up, I reverse it and chat them down. Every time I get sent to a scanner, I opt out. When there is a search gate, I question where the original search failed. When valid ID is rejected by the TDC, I escalate it wait until it is accepted. If more people backed their words with action, we would see real and effective security implemented.

Travelsonic

In many cases yes, but that isn't always the case.

Do half the people going "godwin! godwin!" even know this part?

CelticPax

I know, so crazy. My last flights were to Europe, a big step for not just me but my immediate family (most have not left North America). I've never been frequent myself, but I'm now getting in the position that I could be a frequent flyer. Already in the past year or so, I've driven to Toronto, New York, Indianapolis, Cleveland, and have a few more in the works for coming months. If we weren't in this situation, I'd be taking weekend trips by flight. But now, I don't see how I'll even get to say, California again, with my limited vacation time by train, bus, or car (which aren't safe anymore either).


I feel a bit in the grips of slacktivism myself, but I'm reaching out more and more. I called and e-mailed Gov. Rick Perry as well as e-mailed all of the Texas legislature when we pushed to get the anti-scanner bills passed. My list of representatives and businesses I need to call about the issues is growing, but "in this day in age" I feel using an anonymous number is probably safer.

If I'm "forced" to travel for business, I will opt-out in a heartbeat though.


Not only that, but I've seen a growing sense that Godwin's law no longer applies. It used to be a big faux pas on sites like Fark.com, but with what's going on, making some of these comparisons are not only perfectly valid, but downright necessary. This is the first time in a few years that I've seen Godwin's law "invoked" and I'm rather surprised.

Wally Bird

And some post the things they really do.

Maybe some are lying about how they stand up to the TSA but for a fact, some are not. No way of telling, but even if every one is true that's still a tiny percentage of travelers and not surprising that OP (and others) have not seen evidence of it.

Himeno

I've asked a number of people I know who have traveled through the US since the Whole Body Scanners were introduced. Upon questioning, most of them have said that they'd rather get scanned then groped.

I've seen a number of people in the queue for the scanner who go through it with no idea what it is. I've seen others who, upon confirming that it is one of the scanners, want to opt out, only to see that they are short on time and will miss their flight it they do.

Last year I went through 10 US airport checkpoints. I avoided AIT at 3 (LAX, ANC, SFO) via SDOO or not installed. At SJC, SEA and ATL, I was directed to AIT, but was able to go through the WTMD as "normal" with some lucky timing and glaring back at them.
I had to opt out at DFW, OAK, JFK and BOS. When I opted out at JFK and BOS, a number of others did as well.

It seems that there are a lot of people who want to opt out, but won't unless someone else has as well at the same time.