On what authority is cell phone use banned at Customs?
#122
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 288
As for "constitutional rights", it is my understanding that the US Constitution does not apply in other countries. Until CBP is done with you, that is you have cleared both immigration and customs, you are not IN the US. You are still in the country you came from or you are in an international no mans land.
Firstly, the US government is bound by the Constitution world-wide. Secondly, if it were true that you are "not in the US" at immigration, then obviously CBP would have no authority. If they have authority, then by definition you are on US territory.
#123
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 451
Correct, and in fact it is a complete and all-too-common myth about "transit zones" being "international territory". They are still very much territory of that country and everything is bound by those country's laws. They just give preferential treatment as a custom, rather than requirement of any sort (like duty-free shopping etc).
#124
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,830
I was going through US customs in YUL in January, and while the agent was looking over my passport, I pulled out my phone to check the time. The guy yelled at me and, I kid you not, threatened to detain me and make me miss my flight! All for *looking* at my cell phone! Ahh, power trips.
So a polite "What Canadian Law prohibits the use of my phone" to a US CBP officer; will shut that down immediately.
#125
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,224
Not if you want to be admitted to the USA as a visitor
#126
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,830
Absoultely, they can still refuse you entry (on any whim they like).
However A US customs & immigration officer in Canada, is in Canada, and must follow (for the most part) Canadian law.
Him quoting a US law/regulation/etc claiming cell phones are prohibited, isn't a legit legit argument.
The law in Canada can ban the use of technology (such as photography) of 'national security interests', but that would be in Canada, hence it's legal for Canada to ban taking pictures of CATSA security at an airport; and it's completely OK to take pictures of the TSA in the USA.
However A US customs & immigration officer in Canada, is in Canada, and must follow (for the most part) Canadian law.
Him quoting a US law/regulation/etc claiming cell phones are prohibited, isn't a legit legit argument.
The law in Canada can ban the use of technology (such as photography) of 'national security interests', but that would be in Canada, hence it's legal for Canada to ban taking pictures of CATSA security at an airport; and it's completely OK to take pictures of the TSA in the USA.
#127
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 962
1. The signage / obey-instructions reg is dependent on authority to make the instruction or rule on the sign to begin with. It's just "obey lawful orders". It's not a source of authority.
2. Responses of the form "try doing otherwise, they'll arrest / assault / etc you" are despicable fascism, not justifications. Having physical power does not make an act lawful. (And actually, there is case law saying that physically resisting an arrest with no lawful basis, to the minimum amount of force necessary, is perfectly legal. It is, however, likely to get you very illegally murdered by said police.)
3. Responses of the form "it might be useful because X" are not answers to "on what authority".
4. There's a 1st Amendment & common law right to record the police, upheld in lots of cases against state laws purporting to limit that. That is not different at the border.
5. The "constitution-free zone" thing refers to the lowered 4th Amendment standard: in short, if it's related to border security, searches that normally require probable cause only require reasonable suspicion, and searches that normally require reasonable suspicion require no more than a whim. Refusal of entry is virtually without limit for non-citizens, including for pure BS like "because you took video of us", but citizens can't be denied entry on that basis. (It could however be used as a pretext for more search.)
6. I've wanted to know the answer to the OP's question too, and I have never found one. I rather doubt it has any lawful authority.
2. Responses of the form "try doing otherwise, they'll arrest / assault / etc you" are despicable fascism, not justifications. Having physical power does not make an act lawful. (And actually, there is case law saying that physically resisting an arrest with no lawful basis, to the minimum amount of force necessary, is perfectly legal. It is, however, likely to get you very illegally murdered by said police.)
3. Responses of the form "it might be useful because X" are not answers to "on what authority".
4. There's a 1st Amendment & common law right to record the police, upheld in lots of cases against state laws purporting to limit that. That is not different at the border.
5. The "constitution-free zone" thing refers to the lowered 4th Amendment standard: in short, if it's related to border security, searches that normally require probable cause only require reasonable suspicion, and searches that normally require reasonable suspicion require no more than a whim. Refusal of entry is virtually without limit for non-citizens, including for pure BS like "because you took video of us", but citizens can't be denied entry on that basis. (It could however be used as a pretext for more search.)
6. I've wanted to know the answer to the OP's question too, and I have never found one. I rather doubt it has any lawful authority.
#128
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
This is true of all Pre-Clearance situations. There is not even a requirement that one complete processing, one simply does not board the flight for the US. The worst that can happen at Pre-Clearance is that one is denied boarding (unless, of course, whatever it is also violates local law).
#129
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: one big Port of Entry...
Programs: CBP
Posts: 141
#130
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,684
In the airport waiting areas for both US and Canadian Customs there are signs purporting to prohibit the use of cell phones while in line. Recently I observed a US Customs guy yelling at pax waiting in a lengthy line who were using cell phones. On what authority is this prohibition made?
#131
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 962
There are of course some caveats, like with everything, but that's the basic summary.
#132
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: one big Port of Entry...
Programs: CBP
Posts: 141
Er, actually it basically is true, at least for non US nationals who don't have an established legal relationship with the US like a visa, green card, etc. Basically the only enforceable recourse a foreign national denied a visa (aka permission to enter the US) has is to get an explanation of the denial. Courts don't even exercise jurisdiction over the reasonability of the denial.
There are of course some caveats, like with everything, but that's the basic summary.
There are of course some caveats, like with everything, but that's the basic summary.
#133
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
TheIntercept.com (an investigative journalism website) has a LOT of articles on CBP and the application of detention, deportation, etc with questionable cause. Read their report on the low (practically non-existent) bar required to have someone included on a watch list. Basically it could be any angry cop (you pissed him off), CBP official, whoever... you get put on a list and they make your life impossible. For a long time and with no recourse.
They also revealed the existence of a scoring system... something I was also told IN PERSON in Madrid once...
All quite frightening. <redacted>?
Last edited by TWA884; Oct 17, 2019 at 4:25 pm Reason: Political commentary better left for OMNI/PR
#134
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 72
I have read all of the replies and feel the need to reply. Those signs that prohibit use of cell phones is known as "policy" and mean nothing. Notice there is no law number listed that says under what law it's illegal. I sometimes do something called first amendment audit and have educated many federal /state /local officials. In fact there is DHS memo of 2010 that says filming of federal /military facility is legal. If that is legal, using your cell phone to talk and even film is also legal. Basically you can ignore any directive they give and even can flip them off. Lastly remember that us citizens can't be refused access once their identity been established. Many federal employees think their directive mean something when in reality it mean nothing
#135
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: YVR
Programs: Erstwhile Accidental AC E35K
Posts: 2,918
So I just noticed that this thread has gained some legs since I first asked the question almost nine years ago. I’ve skimmed through the last two or three pages, and what I take from it is this: There are two answers: the legal one and the practical one that applies in real life.
The legal answer is that there is no legal authority.
The practical answer is that if you question it or mess with them they’ll make your life difficult. On this point, it is well known that one must beware of big power in the hands of small people. This problem is particularly acute with customs and immigration people, IME.
Since misbehaviour among customs people is prevalent, the reason for the “policy” is probably that they don’t want you recording their faces and actions. Same reason many airline employees remove or cover their name tags.
The legal answer is that there is no legal authority.
The practical answer is that if you question it or mess with them they’ll make your life difficult. On this point, it is well known that one must beware of big power in the hands of small people. This problem is particularly acute with customs and immigration people, IME.
Since misbehaviour among customs people is prevalent, the reason for the “policy” is probably that they don’t want you recording their faces and actions. Same reason many airline employees remove or cover their name tags.