Whole Body Scanners Opt Out Stories [merged]
Jan 28, 2013, 2:59 am
#3436
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That is a good question and one that I do not have an answer to, I will say this much, not much regarding the TSA surprises me.
Some of the stuff that comes out of TSA employee's mouths blows me away, especially the level of stupidity.
Recently at a gate search a TSA employee opens a female PAX purse and comes upon assorted liquid makeup products and goes ballistic asking why she did not have her liquids in a baggie. She responded that she did while going through security but removes them from the baggies and puts them back in her purse after finishing with security formalities.
The TSA employee responds that all liquids need to be in the baggie at all time while at the airport and on the airplane. He explained that the TSA requires the baggie for safety and if the liquids are not in the baggie they are not safe.
He clearly had no idea that the baggie is not to make the liquids safer but to limit their size.
Sadly, it is not surprising that the traffic director does not understand the rules.
Dan
Some of the stuff that comes out of TSA employee's mouths blows me away, especially the level of stupidity.
Recently at a gate search a TSA employee opens a female PAX purse and comes upon assorted liquid makeup products and goes ballistic asking why she did not have her liquids in a baggie. She responded that she did while going through security but removes them from the baggies and puts them back in her purse after finishing with security formalities.
The TSA employee responds that all liquids need to be in the baggie at all time while at the airport and on the airplane. He explained that the TSA requires the baggie for safety and if the liquids are not in the baggie they are not safe.
He clearly had no idea that the baggie is not to make the liquids safer but to limit their size.
Sadly, it is not surprising that the traffic director does not understand the rules.
Dan
Jan 28, 2013, 8:08 am
#3437
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test!
Jan 28, 2013, 11:58 am
#3438
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One, that was not my experience (I did get told, as usual, that I was an 'opt-out' and I was led away for my grope.
Two, doesn't it strike you as odd that the only one who knows the rules is the supervisor and the TSO on the other side of the NoS? Did the supervisor say why his/her traffic director(s) have so much trouble understanding the rules?
Three, I hope goalie weighs in on this. It would appear that either there is ambiguity in the SOP, the SOP varies from checkpoint to checkpoint, or he has been misled (like I was).
Thanks for posting your experience at that checkpoint. FWIW, as I have posted elsewhere, depending on checkpoint layout and ability to see my bags, I generally walk into the NoS and then explain my limitations (not just the arm raise, I can't 'assume or hold the position' for a good scan. When I do it that way, I get an immediate full-body grope on the other side of the NoS (no waiting for an assist, strangely enough).
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
Jan 28, 2013, 12:23 pm
#3439
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Weighing in.....
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
Didn't you also encounter a 'traffic director' at PHX T2 who pulled the 'physical limitations = 'opt out' = mandatory grope?
Jan 28, 2013, 8:41 pm
#3440
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Weighing in.....
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
Didn't you also encounter a 'traffic director' at PHX T2 who pulled the 'physical limitations = 'opt out' = mandatory grope?
). Now does a TSO have the authority to do a "random" SSSSecondary on me-sadly yes
Jan 28, 2013, 11:40 pm
#3441
Join Date: Dec 2009
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BOS terminal A
Traveling with a friend today. Everyone going through the MMW. Both opted out. I've done it frequently, my friend hasn't. My patdown was one of the quicker ones I've had, no checking the waistband and barely went up my leg (I don't think his hand went more than 6 inches above my kneecap). My friend wasn't so lucky. Even though he was first to get pulled through, I was done and putting my stuff back on almost a minute before he was finished--partially due to him getting the whole spiel, and partly due to his screener's thoroughness.
Jan 29, 2013, 1:56 pm
#3442
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Weighing in.....
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
Bolding part entirely untrue. I have a good source who assured me that the TSOs undergo a special two-week course in Orthopedics that grants them authority to determine medical eligibility. My source tells me that the course is so good that you'd rather have a TSO operating on you than a doctor. According to Pistole, these TSOs are the gold standard in Orthopedics.
<-necessary because my sarcasm tends to get me in trouble around hereMike
Jan 29, 2013, 6:27 pm
#3443
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Weighing in.....
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
I've experienced the 'medical = opt-out' at several airports, including PHX. I have never been told before that only the NoS monitor (airside) can make the decision. Interestingly enough, the PHX gatekeeper seemed to be (still) uninformed about the POD (policies of the day), because not only did is she still telling people 'medical = opt-out', she apparently doesn't know that only the airside NoS monitor is authorized to make that call.
I wondered if this twist was too new to be included in the SOP or if it is just PHX T2.
Jan 29, 2013, 8:58 pm
#3444
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Just a few days ago at SAN, the landside agent was the one who directed me through WTMD. I did not engage the one on the other side. The time before the landside agent conferred with the airside NOS operator before sending me through the WTMD. Now if they would only expand Pre-check
Jan 30, 2013, 11:45 am
#3445
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Weighing in.....
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
It's not the TSO on the other side of the body scanner but rather it's the TSO gatekeeping the WTMD who you inform about your "injury". I was at FLL yesterday (Sunday, 1/27) plus 1/20 & 1/13 and as I approached, I told the WTMD TSO about my shoulder and he simply motioned me thru the WTMD and prior to Precheck, that has been my experience at SFO and LAX as well. Also, no one from the TSA (or anywhere else for that matter) has the authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not. They do have the authority to SSSSelect you for random SSSSecondary SSSScreening but they cannot tell you that you are or are not a "medcial".
I've experienced the 'medical = opt-out' at several airports, including PHX. I have never been told before that only the NoS monitor (airside) can make the decision. Interestingly enough, the PHX gatekeeper seemed to be (still) uninformed about the POD (policies of the day), because not only did is she still telling people 'medical = opt-out', she apparently doesn't know that only the airside NoS monitor is authorized to make that call.
I wondered if this twist was too new to be included in the SOP or if it is just PHX T2.
Originally Posted by Dan1431
...The Supervisor read the note and explained that she is NOT an Opt-out and is instead considered a Medically ineligible and should just utilize the metal detector while she recovers from her injury.
Originally Posted by Dan1431
She asked him how she should avoid this confusion in the future and he said that it is best to enter the machine and than explain to the TSA employee on the other side that she is unable to raise her arm due to an injury and than the TSA employee can determine if she is able to use the machine or not.
Originally Posted by Dan1431
He said that if she can raise her arm enough for the machine to be useful, she can continue through and just have the arm cleared as it will alarm if it is not raised above her head, or if the TSA employee feels that the height which my Aunt is capable of raising her is not enough for the machine to be useful, she will be directed to exit the machine and utilize the metal detector.
Originally Posted by Dan1431
He said that the TSA employee on the other side of the body scanner (airside) is the ONLY one with authority to determine if a PAX is medically ineligible or not.
So with all of that, it appears (and is not surprising to me at all) that we have the "consistent inconsistency of the TSA's SoP not being "S"
Jan 30, 2013, 3:06 pm
#3446
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I was not there, my Aunt relayed the story to me and she repeated what she was told.
As she does not live in PHX (was there for a meeting), she is not going to be passing through the airport anytime soon. I will be passing through PHX, but US Airway's terminal (and hopefully PREcheck) so I will not be able to check if the Supervisor was full of it or not.
Goalie, speaking from experience what the PAX is told changes by the day/agent/time/alignment of earth/moon and sun so trying to get the SOP adhered to (or even accurately stated) is almost impossible.
So what maybe untrue as told to you, could be true when my Aunt was told it, but could change again when the next pax goes through.
Sadly this is one of the problems with TSA they seem to not want to have a common set of practices as they are too routine and a would be bad actor could rely on a set practices and somehow defeat the "layers" of security. So the TSA says they mix it up to keep would be bad actors on their feet, the problem is that the front line employees never get a good grasp of the rules and start ad-libbing (which is protected by TSA because they need to mix things up) so accountability goes out the window.
Dan
As she does not live in PHX (was there for a meeting), she is not going to be passing through the airport anytime soon. I will be passing through PHX, but US Airway's terminal (and hopefully PREcheck) so I will not be able to check if the Supervisor was full of it or not.
Goalie, speaking from experience what the PAX is told changes by the day/agent/time/alignment of earth/moon and sun so trying to get the SOP adhered to (or even accurately stated) is almost impossible.
So what maybe untrue as told to you, could be true when my Aunt was told it, but could change again when the next pax goes through.
Sadly this is one of the problems with TSA they seem to not want to have a common set of practices as they are too routine and a would be bad actor could rely on a set practices and somehow defeat the "layers" of security. So the TSA says they mix it up to keep would be bad actors on their feet, the problem is that the front line employees never get a good grasp of the rules and start ad-libbing (which is protected by TSA because they need to mix things up) so accountability goes out the window.
Dan
Jan 30, 2013, 6:02 pm
#3447
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I was not there, my Aunt relayed the story to me and she repeated what she was told.
As she does not live in PHX (was there for a meeting), she is not going to be passing through the airport anytime soon. I will be passing through PHX, but US Airway's terminal (and hopefully PREcheck) so I will not be able to check if the Supervisor was full of it or not.
Goalie, speaking from experience what the PAX is told changes by the day/agent/time/alignment of earth/moon and sun so trying to get the SOP adhered to (or even accurately stated) is almost impossible.
So what maybe untrue as told to you, could be true when my Aunt was told it, but could change again when the next pax goes through.
Sadly this is one of the problems with TSA they seem to not want to have a common set of practices as they are too routine and a would be bad actor could rely on a set practices and somehow defeat the "layers" of security. So the TSA says they mix it up to keep would be bad actors on their feet, the problem is that the front line employees never get a good grasp of the rules and start ad-libbing (which is protected by TSA because they need to mix things up) so accountability goes out the window.
Dan
As she does not live in PHX (was there for a meeting), she is not going to be passing through the airport anytime soon. I will be passing through PHX, but US Airway's terminal (and hopefully PREcheck) so I will not be able to check if the Supervisor was full of it or not.
Goalie, speaking from experience what the PAX is told changes by the day/agent/time/alignment of earth/moon and sun so trying to get the SOP adhered to (or even accurately stated) is almost impossible.
So what maybe untrue as told to you, could be true when my Aunt was told it, but could change again when the next pax goes through.
Sadly this is one of the problems with TSA they seem to not want to have a common set of practices as they are too routine and a would be bad actor could rely on a set practices and somehow defeat the "layers" of security. So the TSA says they mix it up to keep would be bad actors on their feet, the problem is that the front line employees never get a good grasp of the rules and start ad-libbing (which is protected by TSA because they need to mix things up) so accountability goes out the window.
Dan
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Jan 31, 2013, 11:07 pm
#3448
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: California
Posts: 68
During my TSA massage today at SMF, I was informed of the procedure as performed. Every recitation was followed by "okay?". After the third time I stopped her with "Don't ask if it is okay, because it is NOT okay". I expected DY...T and was pleasantly surprised when she stopped asking if it was okay.
The things I put up with to visit the grandchildren.
The things I put up with to visit the grandchildren.
Feb 1, 2013, 5:40 am
#3450
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Some good luck yesterday and a teaching moment.
BOS B, only half open but right before me they roll up the garage door to the other lane. I rush right through before the MMW is calibrated and ready for service.
Terminal change at JFK an hour later. Long lines under the scaffolding at T1, clock counting and comment card already writteh in my heaf. Won't need it though because quicker than I thought could happen (though still about 10 minutes) I'm standing in font of the oldest, most hunched stanced, non caring WTMD guard I've ever encountered. Arm won't raise speech gets a sigh and a 'You can't hold it like this for three seconds?' response.
"Nope, can't"
"Then you're an opt out"
I've played that game before so immediately ask for supervisor, who is standing right there. He apparently isn't too fond of this woman's lazy appearance either because he reshools her on proper procedure and I'm on my way, grope free.
BOS B, only half open but right before me they roll up the garage door to the other lane. I rush right through before the MMW is calibrated and ready for service.
Terminal change at JFK an hour later. Long lines under the scaffolding at T1, clock counting and comment card already writteh in my heaf. Won't need it though because quicker than I thought could happen (though still about 10 minutes) I'm standing in font of the oldest, most hunched stanced, non caring WTMD guard I've ever encountered. Arm won't raise speech gets a sigh and a 'You can't hold it like this for three seconds?' response.
"Nope, can't"
"Then you're an opt out"
I've played that game before so immediately ask for supervisor, who is standing right there. He apparently isn't too fond of this woman's lazy appearance either because he reshools her on proper procedure and I'm on my way, grope free.