Continental members: lobbying against "new" BA EC qualifying fares ?
Aug 28, 2000, 2:37 pm
#16
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: France
Posts: 27
I agree with Prof who perfectly summed up the rationale of FF Program. I used to be a loyal BA user, flying in coach only, as I do pay my own tickets, unlike many of the lucky ones flying business and taking part to the discussions here 
...but moved out to *Alliance. Oneworld so lost a loyal customer to its arch rival... Well, if BA wants to become Business Airlines, with business class service, seats and prices, please! but I doubt this company will survice in the long run!
...but moved out to *Alliance. Oneworld so lost a loyal customer to its arch rival... Well, if BA wants to become Business Airlines, with business class service, seats and prices, please! but I doubt this company will survice in the long run!
Aug 29, 2000, 7:56 am
#17
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: South Coast, UK
Programs: Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 2,069
It seems to me that BA, and others, must have been hard hit with the success of the low cost,(so called), no frills airlines, GO, Buzz, EasyJet, RyanAir and to a degree, KLMuk....none of which, apart from KLM, offer any form of FFP. What easier way than for BA to offer points/miles, (at 100% minimum, not 25%), on all/most fares to make up some lost ground and regain , I would imagine, a few hundred thousand customers, like me. Personally, and given the choice, I would much rather fly BA
Aug 29, 2000, 11:15 am
#18
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 3,065
Mike: Based on the fact that BA yield is up, I don't think the no-frills have hit them too hard. I think these carriers encourage additional leisure travel rather than dilute existing travel very much, air travel is still a rapidly expanding sector after all.
But you make an interesting point - when the price is right a FFP isn't an issue in the sales proposition.
Of course several posters on this thread would not fly a no-frills airlines as they wouldn't get miles!
Nick
But you make an interesting point - when the price is right a FFP isn't an issue in the sales proposition.
Of course several posters on this thread would not fly a no-frills airlines as they wouldn't get miles!
Nick
Aug 29, 2000, 6:35 pm
#19
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Warsaw
Posts: 27
If BA had a little more competition at LHR they would certainly not be too inclined to change their program. Their arrogance is typical of a company with no competition and a British government that steadfastly protects BA's market dominance by limiting takeoff and landing slots at LHR and making it difficult for the smaller carriers to do business and compete effectively. More power to the small carrier "upstarts". Maybe they will show BA the way. In addition, now that BA is trying to get rid of all its economy class passengers they will be able to focus their bad arrogant attitudes on their First and Business Class passengers. That is if they have any left. There must be a reason as to why a carrier in the best economy the world has ever seen, a monopoly hub with the highest fares in the world with no government reprieve can continue to lose money on its operations!
Eventually their shareholders will see the light because their passengers already have.
Eventually their shareholders will see the light because their passengers already have.
Aug 30, 2000, 12:14 pm
#23
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 752
Nick--tell us, in all fairness, do you think that all the complaints/suggestions here are misguided, irrelevant, not factual, etc? Or is there something to be said for some, if not all, of what's being complained about in this and other strings? If so, perhaps you can put in a good word for those arguments that make sense to you...
Aug 31, 2000, 1:37 am
#24
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 3,065
Prof: I think many of the complaints are fair and justified. BA screw things up, just like any other company. They may even be better at screwing-up than some other companies!
I think the majority of recent 'suggestions' have been misguided. We tend to forget that these forums attract a defined group of passengers who have a special interest. Also a group who want everything, sometimes you can't have everything. An airline knows that it can't appeal to everyone, there are going to be people who it is not right for. The airlines accept this - we don't seem able to do that.
One point which makes sense to me is that BA seem to be very poor at communicating their rules and ensuring their agents know as much about the rules are their passengers.
But you can easily get results: A recent example of mine is that at Birmingham airport (my local) there is a dedicated Executive Club car-park. The barrier had not worked for months so in effect anyone could use it. Whilst writing to The Manager of the Executive Club, I also mentioned that the car-park was a great benefit for some passengers and that it was both a shame it was not working and that BA did not publicise it more. The barrier was repaired and a write-up about the benefit was included in the next copy of teh Executive Club News.
If you want to get BA to make something right that they want to provide, they will try their best (my experience). If you are asking them to change their sales proposition or corporate strategy, you are asking for something which they will already have considered and decided upon.
Nick
Bab's: I was waiting for you to inter-seed!
I think the majority of recent 'suggestions' have been misguided. We tend to forget that these forums attract a defined group of passengers who have a special interest. Also a group who want everything, sometimes you can't have everything. An airline knows that it can't appeal to everyone, there are going to be people who it is not right for. The airlines accept this - we don't seem able to do that.
One point which makes sense to me is that BA seem to be very poor at communicating their rules and ensuring their agents know as much about the rules are their passengers.
But you can easily get results: A recent example of mine is that at Birmingham airport (my local) there is a dedicated Executive Club car-park. The barrier had not worked for months so in effect anyone could use it. Whilst writing to The Manager of the Executive Club, I also mentioned that the car-park was a great benefit for some passengers and that it was both a shame it was not working and that BA did not publicise it more. The barrier was repaired and a write-up about the benefit was included in the next copy of teh Executive Club News.
If you want to get BA to make something right that they want to provide, they will try their best (my experience). If you are asking them to change their sales proposition or corporate strategy, you are asking for something which they will already have considered and decided upon.
Nick
Bab's: I was waiting for you to inter-seed!
Aug 31, 2000, 2:00 am
#25
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: France
Posts: 27
So, anyone interested in lobbying with Gemini ??
Although it is still very much unusual in continental Europe,unlike the US, people with a special interest should engage in lobbying. That's what this website is all about as well.
Basically, there are 2 alternatives: either voting with one's feet (and BA looses customers) or making BA understand that its policy is unsatisfactory for a at least a somehow large group of its customers... Since my complaint as an individual fell on deaf ears with Business Airlines, I left to LH and *, even though I appreciated flying with OW carriers (BA and CX). like Gemini, paying with my own bucks,I fly economy, but make long hauls every 2 months...so, I'm a frequent flyer whom BA is not interested in with its present policy...too bad!
Although it is still very much unusual in continental Europe,unlike the US, people with a special interest should engage in lobbying. That's what this website is all about as well.
Basically, there are 2 alternatives: either voting with one's feet (and BA looses customers) or making BA understand that its policy is unsatisfactory for a at least a somehow large group of its customers... Since my complaint as an individual fell on deaf ears with Business Airlines, I left to LH and *, even though I appreciated flying with OW carriers (BA and CX). like Gemini, paying with my own bucks,I fly economy, but make long hauls every 2 months...so, I'm a frequent flyer whom BA is not interested in with its present policy...too bad!
Aug 31, 2000, 3:50 am
#26
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 3,065
LordGluck: Don't waste your time lobbying - vote with your feet as you have done.
BA know the complaints and accept them.
If BA loose a 'large group' of customers the eco cabin yields will fall and they will have to reduce the price of economy tickets to fill the seats or offer miles to try to get passengers back. However, if they don't loose a 'large group' of customers they carry on as they are.
You can't loose! Fly *A now.
Nick
BA know the complaints and accept them.
If BA loose a 'large group' of customers the eco cabin yields will fall and they will have to reduce the price of economy tickets to fill the seats or offer miles to try to get passengers back. However, if they don't loose a 'large group' of customers they carry on as they are.
You can't loose! Fly *A now.
Nick
Aug 31, 2000, 6:37 am
#27
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 752
Nick--how can we be sure in advance that BA knows and has already decided everything, and that that won't change? Don't companies respond to customer feedback? Sure, these boards attract a particular kind of passenger, one who knows and thinks and cares a great deal about air travel. But some of the views here may be representative of feelings among a broader passenger base, which makes this something like a super "focus group." I would be very surprised if the airline doesn't monitor these conversations. Anyway, my point is that maybe BA doesn't possess omniscient knowledge, and maybe they just got this whole price/mileage calculation wrong. Sure, you could say in reponse that the rear cabins are filling up anyway, and I guess they are--for now. But isn't it in the airline's long-term interest to develop loyalty among its passengers, especially frequent flyers who tend to migrate between front and rear cabins? Mind you, I'm not talking about *miles* here, I'm talking about those ****able tier points, and so my main concern isn't the casual tourist, but someone who flies alot, say 5 or 6 longhaul trips a year, plus numerous shorthauls. Why would an airline go out of its way to alienate someone who flies 40 or 50 thousand miles a year, even if only in economy? Other airlines would give such a passenger elite status right away.
Aug 31, 2000, 6:59 am
#28
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 752
LordGluck, Gemini and others---I assume that the airline watches these conversations from time to time, so in effect we already are lobbying, for whatever it's worth. But it would be helpful to hear from as many more people as possible!!!
Aug 31, 2000, 7:29 am
#29
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 3,065
Ok, lets start from scratch with BA strategy.
The strategy is to move to smaller aircraft and reduce capacity. The reduced capacity will occur in the fare-classes which are unprofitable. The unprofitable fare-classes are the diso....ed economy classes. Therefore BA is reducing capacity in economy, so that they don't have to discount heavily to fill the seats.
Ergo, they don't want to carry discount economy passengers - they loose money on them. If they can increase yields by reducing capacity in the Eco cabin they make more money.
As they don't want to carry discount economy passengers they are not going to attract them by offering miles. If they have spare seats they will fill them by discounting the fare.
That is BA's strategy, like it or love it, that is what they have decided to do.
First question: Is it working? Well yes, yields are up and capacity in Eco is down as is the NUMBER of discount economy passengers. The planes are at their fullest for four years, the number of Eco discounted passengers has reduced but the yield in Eco is static - in reality less empty seats in Eco AND a higher average fare in Eco.
Second question: Is it a good business model? The jury is still out! It may alienate future passengers who are discount Eco passengers now. It may mean some passengers who travel often using different fares feel alienated and don't fly BA. It may mean that BA builds a brand as a premium carrier, which people aspire to.
No one knows at the moment. But BA are taking the risk and so far it is paying off. What they won't do is change their strategy whilst it is working, and it is working.
But be sure of one thing, if BA is struggeling to fill it's Eco cabin and needs to offer something extra to attract more discount passengers, they will do it, it may be fare reductions or it may be the issuance of miles. But they will not do it because outside people lobby them to do it - they will do it as they need to based of their load factors and the success (or otherwise) of their current strategy.
They have chosen the path they wish to follow....
Nick
The strategy is to move to smaller aircraft and reduce capacity. The reduced capacity will occur in the fare-classes which are unprofitable. The unprofitable fare-classes are the diso....ed economy classes. Therefore BA is reducing capacity in economy, so that they don't have to discount heavily to fill the seats.
Ergo, they don't want to carry discount economy passengers - they loose money on them. If they can increase yields by reducing capacity in the Eco cabin they make more money.
As they don't want to carry discount economy passengers they are not going to attract them by offering miles. If they have spare seats they will fill them by discounting the fare.
That is BA's strategy, like it or love it, that is what they have decided to do.
First question: Is it working? Well yes, yields are up and capacity in Eco is down as is the NUMBER of discount economy passengers. The planes are at their fullest for four years, the number of Eco discounted passengers has reduced but the yield in Eco is static - in reality less empty seats in Eco AND a higher average fare in Eco.
Second question: Is it a good business model? The jury is still out! It may alienate future passengers who are discount Eco passengers now. It may mean some passengers who travel often using different fares feel alienated and don't fly BA. It may mean that BA builds a brand as a premium carrier, which people aspire to.
No one knows at the moment. But BA are taking the risk and so far it is paying off. What they won't do is change their strategy whilst it is working, and it is working.
But be sure of one thing, if BA is struggeling to fill it's Eco cabin and needs to offer something extra to attract more discount passengers, they will do it, it may be fare reductions or it may be the issuance of miles. But they will not do it because outside people lobby them to do it - they will do it as they need to based of their load factors and the success (or otherwise) of their current strategy.
They have chosen the path they wish to follow....
Nick
Aug 31, 2000, 10:04 am
#30
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: South Coast, UK
Programs: Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 2,069
Of course, the ongoing discussions between BA/KLM raises some more issues on the back of Nicks points. Assuming that a deal is done, will BA introduce a similar strategy with KLM...no more, or far fewer discounted economy passengers ? Rightly or wrongly, I've always tended to regard KLM as a lower cost carrier amongst the majors....and will they try to jack up the prices "up Front"?.
And will they stop all points/miles against all fares, to fall in line with BA ?
And will they stop all points/miles against all fares, to fall in line with BA ?