Originally Posted by gutt3d

Hi All,

I'm a new member here, having sought you out after taking a case to CEDR, doing it incorrectly, getting a "partial success", but now not knowing whether to accept CEDR decision.

Lots more info in THIS THREAD, but I think I posted in wrong place and perhaps better to re-post here. I'll try and summarise the problem, why I went to CEDR, what I did wrong with CEDR, and where I'm at now. This might be lengthy - I apologise in advance if this is too much detail.

The problem:
I was perhaps a bit naive (and would hesitate to do so again in future) but I booked travel with Expedia on 16th April.
My travel on was on a BA flight from LHR to PHX (non-stop) flying out on Sunday 7th May, returning (again on BA) on Friday 26th May.
I paid with standard BA AMEX (not Platinum). Expedia sold me an outbound ticket on Iberia paper - my AMEX bill said that payment went to Iberia (I called AMEX - they can't help me with this)
I booked Premium Ecomony in both directions - total cost was: £2108.00 flight (RT), plus taxes & airline fees of £470.57, plus £20 airline card fee (total paid £2578.57)
I paid to choose my seat in Premium outbound.
Online check-in wasn't available, so I had to check in on the day - at desk I was told I'd be travelling in Economy rather than Premium.
At the gate I was offered (but initially declined) £75 that I was told was an "ex gratis" payment - I thought accepting it would jepoardise any claim I may have against BA.
Even at the gate I considered a claim because the flight manager (I think?) told me I'd be entitled to "75% of the difference in fare price between Economy and Premium"
I realised at the time that 75% of the difference meant that I'd effectively be charged 25% of the difference for privilege of being downgraded.
I filled in a form on the plane to raise a complaint about the downgrade, and contacted my OLTA (Expedia) when I arrived at my destination.

Why I went to CEDR (and what I think did wrong with CEDR):
Aside from raising a complaint on the flight itself, the first contact I had was with Expedia - who advised me to file a web complaint with BA.
Web complaint raised on 7th May.
It became a bit of a circus - BA web team soon stopped responding when I asked how to escalate.
When web team stopped responding, I spoke to someone at BAEC on 18th or 19th May (from here on in I have names, dates, and times whenever I spoke to someone on the phone), who explained the £75 (or £150 in vouchers) wouldn't jeopardise any claim - but ultimately told me I needed to deal with Expedia to process this.
This went round for some months - Expedia, Iberia, BA, etc.
I contacted Which? and they said it's easy - send formal complaint, wait 8 weeks, then go to CEDR. They said divide ticket cost by 2, and then claim 75%.
Formal letter sent on 4th August.
Deadlock reached on 22nd, and CEDR case raised shortly after.
I did it wrong - I claimed for 75% of half of £2578.57 (I didn't take off taxes or fees before claiming).

The CEDR outcome
BA said that I needed to deal with Expedia. They said that outbound leg cost £615.00 so I'd need to claim £461.25 from Iberia via Expedia.
Adjudicator decision came in on 14th Oct - CEDR says BA need to pay me directly (not Expedia or Iberia), but CEDR agreed with BA that I am owed £461.25 (not the amount I claimed).

Where I'm at now
I know it's not personal, but after the runaround I've been given I'm not quick to trust BA. I don't know whether the LHR-PHX sector price of £615 is accurate - to me it seems a little low, given the overall flight price of £2108.
Perhaps it really was £615 - that's what I need help with, as I don't know how to find out.
I contacted Expedia to try and get a breadkdown. They declined to provide one - here's their response:
"We are unable to provide the breakdown of prices and taxes separately as the price you have booked at are consolidated prices and are discounted rates (Expedia Special rate).

Please find the attached invoice displaying Traveller Summary, Flight Summary, Cost Summary and Payment Information.

We appreciate your understanding in this matter."
(the info they provided is that which I already have - see top of this very long post).

I checked everything I've gathered on this, and found the following for the outbound:
"Iberia 4673 operated by BRITISH AIRWAYS
Premium Economy (T) | Seat 15E | Confirm or change seats with the airline*"
Here's the inbound:
"British Airways 288
Premium Ecomony (W) | Seat 15A | Confirm of change seats with the airline*"

The outbound flight in question has been removed from my BAEC page, and it doesn't show up on my statement anymore. It got removed quite early in this saga - I just assumed it was BA trying to make things difficult - now I see that they did quite a good job, as I don't know how much the flight cost.

What am I looking for
It's been quite a while now, and even though this (to me) is an awful lot of money - I've almost got to the point now where the money is a secondary concern.
I'm not looking for free first class flights as compensation, nor thousands of Avios, or some big wedge of cash. What I do want it to know that BA aren't stitching me up with their offer.
Is their offer of £461.25 accurate? If so, then I stop stressing and put it all behind me.
If the offer is unfair, then what would be a fair offer?
My thinking is: if their offer is unfair, then I need to find a way to establishing enough evidence to send a letter before action and then going the MCOL route (after first rejecting CEDR).
If a fair offer is e.g. £500 (and they offered me £461.25) then it's not worth continuing the fight and I accept CEDR decision.
If, howevr, a fair offer would be e.g. £700 then I'd most certainly consider MCOL.

I also don't know if I'm entitled to a refund of any taxes since I flew Economy on the outbound. If so, do I raise this with directly with Expedia?

Thanks for reading. I've tried to give as much info as possible - sorry this makes for such a long post.

Any help you can give would be most gratefully received. I'd like to reiterate my thanks for the help already given in THIS THREAD

Originally Posted by Often1

As you have been advised in the cross-posted thread, time and again, you need to contact Expedia for the fare breakdown. It is impossible to answer your question without the fare details.

As several have pointed out, there are a number of fare combinations where the CEDR calculation is entirely correct and others where it is entirely wrong. Your claim was incorrect and that may have led to your confusion because you claimed 75% of the entire return ticket.

This is a purely arithmetic matter and has nothing to do with fairness or anything else. You are due 75% of the base fare, exclusive of taxes, for the downgraded segment under EC 261/2004. In addition, you are due a tax refund of 50% of the APD (because the downgrade takes you from WT+ to WT).

Hopefully the Mods will merge these at some point, but in the meantime, the sole question is to ask you for the fare breakdown which Expedia can easily supply.

Originally Posted by Globaliser

Combining the two bolded fares gives you (£1,230 + £2,986) * 50% = £2,108.

So BA's claim that the fare for the outbound half was £615 is plausible.

However, as mentioned in your other thread, that doesn't take into account the argument that you should also be paid 75% of the YQ surcharge for that sector, plus the difference in APD between the amount you paid for WT+ (£150) and the amount due for travel in economy (£75).

Originally Posted by gutt3d

I'm not sure what to make of the YQ surcharge - I'll do some searching on this forum and see if I can find out what that might be.

Originally Posted by gutt3d

Regards the difference in APD - is this same as the £75 that BA paid me?

Originally Posted by Globaliser

Leaving aside that payment, it would be natural to expect to get a refund of the difference in APD. But the experts here will be able to help more on that one.

Originally Posted by gutt3d

Any help you can give would be most gratefully received. I'd like to reiterate my thanks for the help already given in THIS THREAD

Originally Posted by ajamieson

BA has sent me a third and final refusal for payment relating to an LHR-IST flight delayed 3.5 hours because of a lack of flight crew. (Cabin crew, aircraft and passengers were all ready and waiting at the gate, but no pilots...)

BA says the delay was due to other flights being delayed due to weather, which a) isn't considered a valid extraordinary circumstance and b) is false. Our eventual captain was quite clear the delay was caused by lack of flight crew; he told us he was called in from standby.

Is it worth going through CEDR or should I just go straight to MCOL?

Originally Posted by ajamieson

An update; I filed a MCOL and BA initially said it would defend the claim but a few days later offered to pay up. ^ to Flyertalk, to BA

Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave

The second approach - well I was about to say it's riskier, but I don't think it is really: If you look at the threads above regarding Mennens v Emirates, there is in paragraph 30 of that ruling a clear method outlined as to how to calculate the downgrade reimbursement. It essentially said you can't use the whole ticket price, if it was a return ticket, instead you have to apply a quotient of the whole ticket price, based on distance. If this was LHR-PHX-LHR then the quotient can only be 50%. My argument would be that 50% can only be applied to the whole ticket price, not 100% of a particular fare basis entirely of BA's choosing. If that was supposed to be true then the Mennens judgement would have been written very differently.

In which case your start point is £2587,
then minus the APD for WT going out £75
minus £20 credit card (actually this is arguable, but let's give IB/Expedia this)
minus £41 departure fee
minus £3, £5, £4, £13, £13, £4, £3 in smaller taxes
Total deductions: £182 rounded up.
Fare only £2405 resultant (£2587-182)
Divide by 50% assuming a LHR-PHX-LHR ticket
£1203 x 0.75 = £902
Subtract £75 first awarded
Subtract CEDR (if BA have paid) £461

Total amount of new claim £365 (rounded down). This figure has to be adjusted upwards if BA have not paid you CEDR, and upwards if the £20 was excluded from £2587.

You should also claim your seat refund fee if you have not done so already, via the online form for this - this would be totally separate from EC261.

Basis of the claim: (a) CEDR did not apply Mennens v Emirates and (b) BA do not know the fare basis and have made assumptions that you, the customer, are unable to test or check (admittedly thanks to Expedia). They have therefore elected the lowest possible refund, contrary to the letter and spirit of the opening words to EC261 "Action by the Community in the field of air transport should aim, among other things, at ensuring a high level
of protection for passengers".

One way you can handle this is to submit MCOL primarily on the basis of Mennens, but add the rider at the end of the claim, "if the above argument does not find the favour of the Court, the second basis of this claim is for the refund of 75% of the air carrier surcharge since this is merely an element of the air ticket cost, entirely at the airline's choosing, and therefore subject to the same remedies as the core ticket price.

I should point out that I am not a lawyer.

If you go this MCOL route then you can't do it half heartedly, you have to do the homework, drill down in the details, and be prepared to turn up in court, even though on the face of it, it could not be economic for BA to turn up in court for £365.

Final point, though it's obvious. This does illustrate the vulnerability of downgrades on OTA tickets: the OTA is responsible for the fare difference refund (e.g. if EC261 did not apply at all), which in the case Expedia would claim from Iberia, who in turn would look to BA to do the calculation. The combination of Expedia, IB and BA is almost unbeatable in terms of being kicked into the long grass.

Originally Posted by jaffaq

Hey all,

I was recently flying from San Fran – Dublin on BA (one ticket). The SFO-LON was delayed by 6.5 hours (we were on the plane the entire time) and so we arrived 5.5 hours late to London. BA cancelled my original connecting flight from LON-DUB and placed me on a later one, and I arrived roughly 6 hours late to Dublin.

My question is (if anyone knows), would I be entitled to compensation for the entire delay (600 euro) or for both the first delay to London and the second cancellation and rebooking (600 + 250 euro)?

On top of this, thanks to staff working rules, we were only served one meal the entire time we were on the plane (over 17 hours) and my baggage was delayed by two days.

Sorry if this has already been asked!

Originally Posted by jaffaq

Hey all,

I was recently flying from San Fran – Dublin on BA (one ticket). The SFO-LON was delayed by 6.5 hours (we were on the plane the entire time) and so we arrived 5.5 hours late to London. BA cancelled my original connecting flight from LON-DUB and placed me on a later one, and I arrived roughly 6 hours late to Dublin.

My question is (if anyone knows), would I be entitled to compensation for the entire delay (600 euro) or for both the first delay to London and the second cancellation and rebooking (600 + 250 euro)?

On top of this, thanks to staff working rules, we were only served one meal the entire time we were on the plane (over 17 hours) and my baggage was delayed by two days.

Sorry if this has already been asked!

Originally Posted by golfmad

Do you know what the reason was for the delay?

Originally Posted by jaffaq

A hole in the plane apparently.

The team in SFO had to send photos of the damage to structural engineers in London. After some time the pilot said the hole was deemed too large to safely fly with without repair and that they called the head structural engineer in. After some more time, they devised a quick temporary solution (super strength duct tape?) which the engineers applied in SFO.