Oct 13, 2016, 9:18 am
Last edit by: orbitmic
BAEC text is now confirming that after the forthcoming changes, TP and Avios for flights marketed as "domestic first" on two class aircrafts (ie everything except transcontinental flagship on all JFK-LAX vv, all JFK-SFO vv, and the MIA-LAX flights operated by a 77W) will accrue on a business class basis, ie 40TPs or 140TPs on flights over 2000mi and corresponding avios.
Seems it has been confirmed! Details in this post #254
(This is a thread that is really crying out for a wiki. Edit to your heart's content!)
Seems it has been confirmed! Details in this post #254
(This is a thread that is really crying out for a wiki. Edit to your heart's content!)
Bad news for TP runs using AA [domestic F sells as J. Reduced TPs - confirmed]
Oct 18, 2016, 9:07 am
#286
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Sorry but I sure you are wrong. As I stated earlier AA transfer the flight details etc which include the Cabin class Booked class etc and BAEC awards the TPs and Avios. To back up my knowledge, the evidence I would present is that after US Airways and AA merged I took some internal flights which were old US Airways flights but flown under an AA flight number etc. When the flights were posted to my BAEC account they got nothing because BAEC system did not recognise the flight number and city pair as being valid. I phoned up GGL line and they explained how the system worked which are the details I have relayed to you. i.e. BAEC awards the TPs and Avios according to a table within the BA system. As the flights I took were not in the table they got no points until BAEC updated the table.
Oct 18, 2016, 9:14 am
#287
Join Date: Aug 2014
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Yes, AA does transfer information about the flight, so it is up to AA to code it correctly to distinguish between a 2 class flight and a 3 class flight. AA is very good at getting the correct booking code over to BAEC (for example, for upgraded flights). AA does not physically award the Avios or TPs of course,but AA is the party that decides how many are awarded, and BAEC simply does the job. What the two airlines agree upon in connection with the changes is not known yet.
How many Avios are awarded for flights on partner airlines is decided through negotiations with involved carriers. Not by BAEC unilaterally. Same applies to redemptions. AA insisted that F on 2 class services is awarded (and charged for redemptions) as first class rather than business class even though it is business class for all intents and purposes. And this is reflected in the agreement.
As another example - AA members get nothing on most CX buckets not because AA does not want to charge CX for the miles, but because CX does not want to award anything (and pay anything) for these buckets not seeing them as a big marketing tool. In OW it is up to the marketing carrier to decide how many miles are awarded.
How many Avios are awarded for flights on partner airlines is decided through negotiations with involved carriers. Not by BAEC unilaterally. Same applies to redemptions. AA insisted that F on 2 class services is awarded (and charged for redemptions) as first class rather than business class even though it is business class for all intents and purposes. And this is reflected in the agreement.
As another example - AA members get nothing on most CX buckets not because AA does not want to charge CX for the miles, but because CX does not want to award anything (and pay anything) for these buckets not seeing them as a big marketing tool. In OW it is up to the marketing carrier to decide how many miles are awarded.
Oct 18, 2016, 9:38 am
#288
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I do not think that this is correct. My understanding accords with that of orbitmic, viz. CX will make a notional "cash" payment to the airline whose FFP you belong to (say BA) but that airline will decide itself now many miles/points it wants to give. Clearly, if the amount paid by CX is low, it will re reflected in a correspondingly low number of miles as the other airline will not want to be out of pocket but that decision is that of the other airline.
Oct 18, 2016, 11:52 am
#289
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But what you highlighted is the correct part. The 'chart' you're referring to was/is created by BAEC based on the information it gets from other carriers re how much it wants to pay BAEC for the Avios to entice BAEC members to fly with them. If BAEC tells AA that 1 cent will buy 2 Avios, and AA gives BAEC US$2 for a particular passenger then BAEC will issue 400 Avios to the member.
How is the decision of the other airline if the amount of issued miles/Avios represent the value of the notional payment that the passenger's programme received? If AA says 'I will give you X for every BAEC member that flies with me on flight Y in booking class Z', and then BAEC says 'OK, I will award X Avios for the US$ X that you give'. The particular number of Avios is set by BAEC but it is determined by the payment from the other airline, so in effect it is set by the latter. CX pays AA nothing when AAdvantage members fly with it in the cheapest buckets. There are no standard payments. CX simply refuses to pay anything to AA as it does not need to attract AA flyers (unlike BA, whose flyers CX wants to attract). CX decided that it did not want to issue (not to be read literally) any AA miles to attract those passengers. Or are you saying that CX does pay AA when its members fly the cheapest buckets but AA decides not issue any miles regardless and pockets the cash?
I am surprised that we're even discussing this when this topic has been covered so many times on this forum. And it was confirmed from several sources that the marketing carrier sets the value of the reward the member gets and pays that value to the passenger's home programme. I am even more surprised as the specific issue of AA domestic F flights (why they're credited as F and why awards in F are charged as F rather than J) was addressed several times by BAEC representatives here in connection with BAEC changes. And it was confirmed that it is of AA making; that it is AA that gets to decide what gets credited/charged. So, whatever the new accrual/redemption chart is it won't be decided by BAEC... (yes, BAEC will convert whatever it gets from AA into Avios, but AA will decide what it wants to give BAEC when its members flies on a specific booking class). AA does not set the 'exchange rate' of the notional payment into Avios but the number of Avios directly corresponds to the value of the payment.
I do not think that this is correct. My understanding accords with that of orbitmic, viz. CX will make a notional "cash" payment to the airline whose FFP you belong to (say BA) but that airline will decide itself now many miles/points it wants to give. Clearly, if the amount paid by CX is low, it will re reflected in a correspondingly low number of miles as the other airline will not want to be out of pocket but that decision is that of the other airline.
I am surprised that we're even discussing this when this topic has been covered so many times on this forum. And it was confirmed from several sources that the marketing carrier sets the value of the reward the member gets and pays that value to the passenger's home programme. I am even more surprised as the specific issue of AA domestic F flights (why they're credited as F and why awards in F are charged as F rather than J) was addressed several times by BAEC representatives here in connection with BAEC changes. And it was confirmed that it is of AA making; that it is AA that gets to decide what gets credited/charged. So, whatever the new accrual/redemption chart is it won't be decided by BAEC... (yes, BAEC will convert whatever it gets from AA into Avios, but AA will decide what it wants to give BAEC when its members flies on a specific booking class). AA does not set the 'exchange rate' of the notional payment into Avios but the number of Avios directly corresponds to the value of the payment.
Oct 18, 2016, 12:43 pm
#290
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I fear we are drifting into "how many Avios can fit on the head of a pin" territory... While this is no doubt catnip for FFP nerds, surely the thing FTers really care about is TPs ?
And surely AA could care less how many TPs BAEC decides to credit BAEC members ?
They just send over the flight details and let Waterside figure it out, no ?
And surely AA could care less how many TPs BAEC decides to credit BAEC members ?
They just send over the flight details and let Waterside figure it out, no ?
Oct 18, 2016, 1:11 pm
#292
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But what you highlighted is the correct part. The 'chart' you're referring to was/is created by BAEC based on the information it gets from other carriers re how much it wants to pay BAEC for the Avios to entice BAEC members to fly with them. If BAEC tells AA that 1 cent will buy 2 Avios, and AA gives BAEC US$2 for a particular passenger then BAEC will issue 400 Avios to the member.
whereas scillyisles was indicating that just the flight details are passed across and then BA issues miles and TPs based on earning rules of BA - AA doesn't decide rules for earning TPs towards status, but BA does
Last edited by Dave Noble; Oct 18, 2016 at 1:16 pm
Oct 18, 2016, 1:21 pm
#293
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 995
The post stated that AA decides both how many miles and how many TPs to award ( "AA does not physically award the Avios or TPs of course,but AA is the party that decides how many" )
whereas scillyisles was indicating that just the flight details are passed across and then BA issues miles and TPs based on earning rules of BA - AA doesn't decide rules for earning TPs towards status, but BA does
whereas scillyisles was indicating that just the flight details are passed across and then BA issues miles and TPs based on earning rules of BA - AA doesn't decide rules for earning TPs towards status, but BA does
Oct 18, 2016, 1:23 pm
#294
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
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As far as I am aware, the rates of earning on partner flights are determined via bilateral agreements between the EC and the partners involved.
Oct 18, 2016, 1:34 pm
#295
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In any event, BA R/I gets the same number of miles as AA F/P/A in BAEC (150% + tier bonus).
If you travel in BA J/C/D then you get 250% which is more than AA F. But BA swallow that because they get a bigger share of the revenue if you are on a BA marketed flight.
There is no cost for tier points.
Oct 18, 2016, 1:42 pm
#296
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The marketing airline buys the miles, so that would be BA.
In any event, BA R/I gets the same number of miles as AA F/P/A in BAEC (150% + tier bonus).
If you travel in BA J/C/D then you get 250% which is more than AA F. But BA swallow that because they get a bigger share of the revenue if you are on a BA marketed flight.
There is no cost for tier points.
In any event, BA R/I gets the same number of miles as AA F/P/A in BAEC (150% + tier bonus).
If you travel in BA J/C/D then you get 250% which is more than AA F. But BA swallow that because they get a bigger share of the revenue if you are on a BA marketed flight.
There is no cost for tier points.
Tier Points are awarded by BAEC according to their own rules. AA don't have an interest here (except very indirectly in the provision of OWE benefits). When BAEC start awarding 140 for EWR-PHX in "First Class" AA could care less
Avios are the subject of multiple commercial agreements... AA very much have an interest... no doubt this is being worked on at present.
Hands up, who actually gives a toss about the Avios ?
Oct 18, 2016, 1:46 pm
#297
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Yes, this is the case. And the point I was making that it would not be the 'evil' BA that would reduce the number of Avios/TPs credited for flying with AA. If AA tells BAEC to treat the new booking classes on domestic 2 class flights as business then I don't see how BAEC will award F TPs but issue only business class Avios as this is what AA paid for. So, indirectly the partner airline does influence how many TPs are awarded as was confirmed by BAEC several times.
Oct 18, 2016, 2:11 pm
#298
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Ok. Now that's clear, everyone please carry on speculating about how AA and BA internal systems might award magic status beans.
Oct 18, 2016, 4:36 pm
#299
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As part of my 'fly other airlines' decision following the repeated enhancements I've blundered and am a bit short of 3.5k TP for the 2 GUF1 I need for the family trip back to the Falkirk kelpies next year (always ends up being peak and need the jokers so the whole BAEC pays off). In light of the changes I've bitten the bullet and am nearing the end of my first ever pure TP run (LGA-BOS-MIA-RDU-CLT-LGA for $487).
I always knew the good times in domestic F would end and I am unlikely to do this again (and definitely not for 200TP vs 300TP) though it has been an enjoyable day with laptop and book and a brief catch up with old friends in MIA. AA now has to compete on price/schedule/reliability for F. Applying those standards to Y post the last devaluation (5TP per sector) I haven't set foot on them but who knows. At least I'll still be seeing them for TATL J where they really have transformed themselves.
Only constant is change. Not so long along AA was the joke of the alliance for crossing the pond.
I always knew the good times in domestic F would end and I am unlikely to do this again (and definitely not for 200TP vs 300TP) though it has been an enjoyable day with laptop and book and a brief catch up with old friends in MIA. AA now has to compete on price/schedule/reliability for F. Applying those standards to Y post the last devaluation (5TP per sector) I haven't set foot on them but who knows. At least I'll still be seeing them for TATL J where they really have transformed themselves.
Only constant is change. Not so long along AA was the joke of the alliance for crossing the pond.
Oct 18, 2016, 5:57 pm
#300
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
Yes, this is the case. And the point I was making that it would not be the 'evil' BA that would reduce the number of Avios/TPs credited for flying with AA. If AA tells BAEC to treat the new booking classes on domestic 2 class flights as business then I don't see how BAEC will award F TPs but issue only business class Avios as this is what AA paid for. So, indirectly the partner airline does influence how many TPs are awarded as was confirmed by BAEC several times.
The only thing I take issue is with AA's game of charades over the effective "downgrading" of Domestic First to Domestic Business. Such manoeuvres is not however entirely inconsistent with the business practices of Doug Parker's US Airways management team.
However having said that, what AA is doing would appear to be more in line with other OW carriers, where the highest cabin on domestic/regional flights is Business Class e.g. QF, CX, MH, BA, UL.