The day that we don't avoid AA like the plague is coming sooner than you think...
Jan 28, 2012, 3:23 pm
#106
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: LON, ACK, BOS..... (Not necessarily in that order)
Programs: **Mucci Diamond Hairbrush** - compared to that nothing else matters (+BA Bronze)
Posts: 15,178
Sorry to labour this point, but to/from LAX you're guaranteed the 744 on BA so that's the argument over in favour of BA.
In general terms the BA seat is superior to AA from an access point of view. BA's weakness is the middle pair on the lower deck, but apart from that you're laughing, and on the UD it's no contest. For an 11 hour flight it makes a difference.
I have recently done an AA in J and the window seats are a definite avoid, and it isn't much joy for the aisle pax if Mr Incontinent is in the window seat. Solo travellers need to shoot for aisles on the centre trio and hope for a vacant centre seat.
The whole experience was really summed as as 'Not Nice' I'm afraid, with the exception of the food where, shock horror, AA may have edged it. In all other respects it was
In general terms the BA seat is superior to AA from an access point of view. BA's weakness is the middle pair on the lower deck, but apart from that you're laughing, and on the UD it's no contest. For an 11 hour flight it makes a difference.
I have recently done an AA in J and the window seats are a definite avoid, and it isn't much joy for the aisle pax if Mr Incontinent is in the window seat. Solo travellers need to shoot for aisles on the centre trio and hope for a vacant centre seat.
The whole experience was really summed as as 'Not Nice' I'm afraid, with the exception of the food where, shock horror, AA may have edged it. In all other respects it was
My experience of the AA J seat last week was mixed, flying as a BA strike refugee.
While the seat is perfectly comfortable in the lounge recliner position, it is in my view a pretty awful bed: too narrow and way too much hard plastic intrusion against the arms. My experience was not helped by the defective arm rest that refused to lock down restricting the available width by almost 4 inches. Luckily, as my flight was not full I was able to relocate from 10J to 08J but encountered the same malfunction there. The arm rest in the empty 08H thankfully did collapse and lock combined with lifting the console arm upwards allowed me to sleep intermittently for a few hours.
The Lufty example is notably more comfortable in my experience.
While the seat is perfectly comfortable in the lounge recliner position, it is in my view a pretty awful bed: too narrow and way too much hard plastic intrusion against the arms. My experience was not helped by the defective arm rest that refused to lock down restricting the available width by almost 4 inches. Luckily, as my flight was not full I was able to relocate from 10J to 08J but encountered the same malfunction there. The arm rest in the empty 08H thankfully did collapse and lock combined with lifting the console arm upwards allowed me to sleep intermittently for a few hours.
The Lufty example is notably more comfortable in my experience.
Of the oneworld lie flats, it is probably the worst seat to sleep on.
It is Ok for a day time slump, but too angled to sleep unless you sleep on your tummy - and I tried that and still slip down it!
If you can, check with the client to see if your tix can be chnaged onto BA metal. While BA club seats are flimmsy (AA's are sturdy at least) the flatness of the seat beats AA in my experience
It is Ok for a day time slump, but too angled to sleep unless you sleep on your tummy - and I tried that and still slip down it!
If you can, check with the client to see if your tix can be chnaged onto BA metal. While BA club seats are flimmsy (AA's are sturdy at least) the flatness of the seat beats AA in my experience
From flatseats.com
Originally Posted by J Forster on Flatseats.com
JFK-CDG, Boeing 767 - mediocre hardware sums it up. I was in a window bulkhead seat in business class and had read that the new "next generation" seats in the window position leave you nearly trapped if your aisle seatmate puts his seat in the reclining position. All too true......
Originally Posted by John Ottman on Flatseats.com
American Airlines has blown it once again. Their new long-haul business class "flat" seats are angled, which is not conducive to sleep
Last edited by Jimmie76; Jan 28, 2012 at 3:33 pm
Jan 28, 2012, 4:23 pm
#107
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Programs: AA EXP, UA GLD, Bonvoy Titan, HH Dia, WoH Exp
Posts: 2,673
It's interesting to read a lot of AA-bashing from those who have never flown on AA J.
I don't think it is realistic to compare a North American airline to an European airline to an Asian airline. It's like comparing apples and oranges to pears. You can compare AA, UA, DL to AC. You can compare BA, AF, LH, to LX. You can compare CX, TG, NH to KE.
North American airlines are similar to one another than they are to their European or Asian counterparts. They are competiting in their own market. UA/CO is refitting a lot of their long-haul planes with complete lie-flat seats, so it makes business sense for AA to jump on the bandwagon. In the European market, you ask how come BA has all lie-flat CW seats and yet LH doesn't have any J lie flat seats. Yet LH still does quite well with their business model. Having a nice hard product is nice, but a lot of people also value the soft product.
I fly mainly AA J and look forward to the new 777-300ER J seats. I will still fly J on other airlines including BA and other OW and *A airlines. Personally I do not think BA's CW is "better" than AA's J product. I think they are just different.
I don't think it is realistic to compare a North American airline to an European airline to an Asian airline. It's like comparing apples and oranges to pears. You can compare AA, UA, DL to AC. You can compare BA, AF, LH, to LX. You can compare CX, TG, NH to KE.
North American airlines are similar to one another than they are to their European or Asian counterparts. They are competiting in their own market. UA/CO is refitting a lot of their long-haul planes with complete lie-flat seats, so it makes business sense for AA to jump on the bandwagon. In the European market, you ask how come BA has all lie-flat CW seats and yet LH doesn't have any J lie flat seats. Yet LH still does quite well with their business model. Having a nice hard product is nice, but a lot of people also value the soft product.
I fly mainly AA J and look forward to the new 777-300ER J seats. I will still fly J on other airlines including BA and other OW and *A airlines. Personally I do not think BA's CW is "better" than AA's J product. I think they are just different.
Jan 28, 2012, 4:24 pm
#108
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA Gold(OWE), QF LTG, MR Plat, IHG Spire, Hertz PC
Posts: 8,156
Yes, the AA seat is not as good as BA, but I think the service is a much of a muchness, especially when you take into account elements such as F&B into the equation. You also need to consider other carriers flying cross the pond. Many EU carriers don't have flat beds, and many US carriers still have a long way to go before their conversion is complete. It would of course be more authoritative had you actually flown on it yourself.
Finally why does this just need to be yet another BA vs AA thread? It is getting a little boring reading these, but then again, I suspect this is why I so rarely come into this forum now.
Jan 28, 2012, 4:37 pm
#109
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,128
I think genuine comparisons with as much objectivity as possible are very useful, but comparing in a way that has a 'dig' at one airline or the other is not as useful and can be counter-productive by masking the "real" comparison.
Jan 28, 2012, 4:58 pm
#110
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ARN
Programs: Mucci Entry Level, BA Gold, EK Pleb, SK Pleb, QR Pleb
Posts: 3,585
I have been on some AA flights, not long-haul but MIA-LAS in a 737-800 with the "old seat". Big comfy seat that beats anything in BA CE when it comes to the hard and the soft product. And then LAS-JFK, also 737-800 but this time a high tech-seat that could be reclined into a flat seat ^
I had the aisle seat so I'm not sure how easy it would be for the window pax to access the aisle.
I'm curious to try a long-haul with AA but of course I want a flat bed. I also want the privacy I get in a window seat when flying J BA.
I had the aisle seat so I'm not sure how easy it would be for the window pax to access the aisle.
I'm curious to try a long-haul with AA but of course I want a flat bed. I also want the privacy I get in a window seat when flying J BA.
Jan 28, 2012, 5:35 pm
#111
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
Jan 28, 2012, 5:39 pm
#112
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
That's in AA domestic F?
Jan 28, 2012, 5:46 pm
#113
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
Have you seen the changes at UA? I'm flying today with two 100,000 mile flyers from there moving to AA at SFO. Midtier at UA gets 50% bonus miles while AA midtier is still at 100%. UA upgrade priority list has also had changes. If you can live with the route structure, AA is very attractive to midtier flyers from other U.S. carriers.
Last edited by tom911; Jan 28, 2012 at 5:52 pm Reason: airborne wifi glitch
Jan 28, 2012, 6:21 pm
#114
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NYC, SLC, LAX
Programs: AA EXP, UA Plat
Posts: 3,953
And even by the standards of the domestic lounges of other US carriers, the AA lounges are singularly lacking in amenities. Only recently did they start offering any sort of free alcohol, you have to pay for almost any type of edible food, you can't take a paper out of the lounge, and the wifi setup is cumbersome. I'm a big AA fan, but my lounge memberships are with DL and CO.
Your other point is 100% valid though. I used to be a exclusively UA domestic flyer before the merger, and I thought RCCs were pretty terrible.
When first walked into an Admirals Club, my first thought was "you have got to be kidding me." I honestly didn't think it was possible to have a worse lounge than an RCC, but apparently I was quite naive.
And the paid food thing is simply insulting. I mean, really.
Thankfully the Flagships have a really nice selection that makes up for it. Marinated smoked salmon with cream cheese mmm
Jan 28, 2012, 6:26 pm
#115
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: RBKC
Programs: AA EXP and Eurostar Carte Blanche
Posts: 3,856
The F cabin is expected to be reduced to 8 seats, also in a 1-2-1 configuration (down from 16 seats in the current 772s).
Y is expected to be 10 across in a 3-4-3 configuration, up from the current 9 across 2-5-2 configuration.
Y+ is expected to be 9 across in a 3-3-3 configuration, in a separate cabin from Y, with different seats.
Total expected capacity: 8F, 52J, 30Y+, 220Y
See this thread for details, starting from post #208.
Last edited by ExpatExp; Jan 28, 2012 at 6:34 pm Reason: Added details about Y and Y+ seats.
Jan 28, 2012, 6:45 pm
#116
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: LON, ACK, BOS..... (Not necessarily in that order)
Programs: **Mucci Diamond Hairbrush** - compared to that nothing else matters (+BA Bronze)
Posts: 15,178
That is where you have gone wrong with just going for comments from the BA board.
Yes, the AA seat is not as good as BA, but I think the service is a much of a muchness, especially when you take into account elements such as F&B into the equation. You also need to consider other carriers flying cross the pond. Many EU carriers don't have flat beds, and many US carriers still have a long way to go before their conversion is complete. It would of course be more authoritative had you actually flown on it yourself.
Finally why does this just need to be yet another BA vs AA thread? It is getting a little boring reading these, but then again, I suspect this is why I so rarely come into this forum now.
Yes, the AA seat is not as good as BA, but I think the service is a much of a muchness, especially when you take into account elements such as F&B into the equation. You also need to consider other carriers flying cross the pond. Many EU carriers don't have flat beds, and many US carriers still have a long way to go before their conversion is complete. It would of course be more authoritative had you actually flown on it yourself.
Finally why does this just need to be yet another BA vs AA thread? It is getting a little boring reading these, but then again, I suspect this is why I so rarely come into this forum now.
I'm not having a general go at AA (or comparing it or their seats to BA, I liked the crew the last time I flew coach with them), just pointing out that the current seat has problems that should have been spotted before the thing was signed off by management. Most if not all wedgie seats suffer from the same thing so AA is not unique in this. The new seat looks streets ahead of the current one and it's a big leap for AA which is a big positive, I'm seriously tempted to try these. I only used the examples from BA FT because I was being a bit lazy, I also listed a few from flatseats.com which has three pages that are mostly critical of the seat. But the web is littered with examples.
Originally Posted by William A. Allen III
<snipped>But American Airlines has now joined the ranks of Delta Airlines in providing one of the most uncomfortable and claustrophobic Business Class seat designs and cabin layouts in the recent wretched history of flying. Worse, they are blatantly lying about its supposed virtues.
Even the very experienced Flight Attendants serving on board AA's flagship international flights were direct and highly vocal about how horrible the seats are. I had several FAs apologize to me for the seats' inherent discomfort and then apologize again for their company's claims that AA's Business Class patrons laud the seats and prefer them over the old ones. The Flight Attendants I talked to were embarrassed that American insists the new seats are preferred, saying that they'd heard nothing but negative feedback from experienced passengers like me who'd tried them. <snipped>
Even the very experienced Flight Attendants serving on board AA's flagship international flights were direct and highly vocal about how horrible the seats are. I had several FAs apologize to me for the seats' inherent discomfort and then apologize again for their company's claims that AA's Business Class patrons laud the seats and prefer them over the old ones. The Flight Attendants I talked to were embarrassed that American insists the new seats are preferred, saying that they'd heard nothing but negative feedback from experienced passengers like me who'd tried them. <snipped>
Originally Posted by reviewcentre.com
<snipped>The seat configuration is 2 on each side and 3 in the middle on the Boeing 777 I was on. If you are in a window seat or the muddle seat and the Seats next to you are flat you gave no option but to try and climb over them or be climbed over. Which means you are constantly disturbing people or being disturbed.
The chairs are really uncomfortable when trying to make them into a bed .they do not go flat and are very uncomfortable to sleep on. Your legs are always lower than your body. I only slept for one hour !<snipped>
The chairs are really uncomfortable when trying to make them into a bed .they do not go flat and are very uncomfortable to sleep on. Your legs are always lower than your body. I only slept for one hour !<snipped>
Originally Posted by FLYGUY767
The design for this new seat leaves a lot to be desired. I think for the most part it is a step above the last AA J seat, yet this seat seems to underwhelm more and more people. From my experience with the new seat. I loathe it, a lot of people that I work with feel the same way.
Interestingly there is a user post on Business Traveller that says this is the Cirrus SICMA Aero Seat not the Contour one.
Jan 28, 2012, 6:48 pm
#117
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: LON, ACK, BOS..... (Not necessarily in that order)
Programs: **Mucci Diamond Hairbrush** - compared to that nothing else matters (+BA Bronze)
Posts: 15,178
The consensus in the relevant thread in the AA forum is that the J cabins (plural; two cabins) are expected to be 4 across in a 1-2-1 configuration.
The F cabin is expected to be reduced to 8 seats, also in a 1-2-1 configuration (down from 16 seats in the current 772s).
Y is expected to be 10 across in a 3-4-3 configuration, up from the current 9 across 2-5-2 configuration.
Y+ is expected to be 9 across in a 3-3-3 configuration, in a separate cabin from Y, with different seats.
Total expected capacity: 8F, 52J, 30Y+, 220Y
See this thread for details, starting from post #208.
The F cabin is expected to be reduced to 8 seats, also in a 1-2-1 configuration (down from 16 seats in the current 772s).
Y is expected to be 10 across in a 3-4-3 configuration, up from the current 9 across 2-5-2 configuration.
Y+ is expected to be 9 across in a 3-3-3 configuration, in a separate cabin from Y, with different seats.
Total expected capacity: 8F, 52J, 30Y+, 220Y
See this thread for details, starting from post #208.
(no idea why I posted 6)and is obvious from the computer renderings you can clearly see 1-2-1 in the images, in my defence it's been a long day.
Jan 28, 2012, 6:59 pm
#118
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: RBKC
Programs: AA EXP and Eurostar Carte Blanche
Posts: 3,856
Jan 28, 2012, 8:30 pm
#119
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kent, UK
Programs: BA Gold, SPG Platinum, Marriott Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 3,809
I feel that the lack of comparison to other world class airlines is the reason why American (not just AA) airlines have fallen behind the competition, but are now at least, trying to catch up.
In my opinion, it's simply an excuse for laziness to not try to compete against non-American airlines. It could be argued that this attitude has been the cause of lack of innovation and complacency in the US market. Time to up their game and compete on a world scale which is likely to see them capturing business from non-American passengers. That can only be good for everyone. ^
Jan 28, 2012, 11:37 pm
#120
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,128
That sounds pretty nice. So as I read it, the 'snack mix' type of catering reported are only on super short sectors, and on longer sectors you get proper food?