Ask the BA Staffer and Heathrow ATC
Dec 18, 2012, 3:44 am
#1666
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: London
Programs: BAEC Gold, IHG Spire Ambassador, Hilton Diamond, Starbucks Gold
Posts: 1,276
I'm flying LHR-GLA on 1492 on Wednesday and noticed that the weather for this day is for 25 kph South South Easterly winds at LHR.
Does this kind of this crosswind create ATC issues with spacing, missed approaches etc. or will it be business as normal. Similarly, the weather in GLA for our scheduled arrival is a 31kph almost perfect crosswind. While that will make it entertaining for non-nervous flyers, I don't see GLA being so busy as to have weather delays, but what are the crosswind limits for BA pilots?
I have more than my fair share of stories about evening domestics suffering from delays that have escalated through the day and was wondering if I should plan for the long haul in the lounge?
Does this kind of this crosswind create ATC issues with spacing, missed approaches etc. or will it be business as normal. Similarly, the weather in GLA for our scheduled arrival is a 31kph almost perfect crosswind. While that will make it entertaining for non-nervous flyers, I don't see GLA being so busy as to have weather delays, but what are the crosswind limits for BA pilots?
I have more than my fair share of stories about evening domestics suffering from delays that have escalated through the day and was wondering if I should plan for the long haul in the lounge?
Dec 18, 2012, 4:06 am
#1667
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 198
Business as normal. You're only looking at about 18 knots x-wind, which is within the demonstrated x-wind component of many light aircraft. And well under the demonstrated x-wind component of BA's fleet.
Dec 18, 2012, 6:24 am
#1668
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 8,487
If you go to Helsinki in the winter you will discover that, apart from some very specialised items, the majority of the winter maintenance equipment is just hired in as required from plant & machinery hirers. But they are supremely well organised and know every step in the chain. For example, they snowplough employee car parks overnight so the employees can report for duty without timewasting (one recent Heathrow issue). Every access road is cleared to give redundancy to the network. If snow had to be trucked they have all the arrangements in place to hire in from construction contractors. If they need a bulldozer to deal with a significant accumulation they hire one in by the day, not go out and spend 1/4m on one which is hardly used.
It's a common trait. Management announces 10m to be spent on something, eg snow precautions. Equipment salesmen lick their lips and manoeuvre to ensure that is all spent with them. Whether it is used appropriately or actually useful is by the by; they have made the sale. These are the ones queueing up outside the procurement director's door to get their hands on all the budget, rather than those wanting to hire casual labour, ensure the right people are around, or just organise things differently.
Remember the old joke : "How does the man who drives the snowplough get to work in the morning ?".
Dec 18, 2012, 6:48 am
#1669
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: not far from MUC
Posts: 6,620
Probably a good chance those very tractors are used to plough fields in the warmer months, too.Q: Do any UK airports actually publish their "snow plan"? Or is it need-to-know only...
Dec 18, 2012, 6:51 am
#1670
Join Date: Nov 2012
Programs: BAEC silver
Posts: 788
MAN airport winter ops 12-13
http://www.magworld.co.uk/magweb.nsf/alldocs/273A2A576E693D0680257AD3005A696C/$File/Winter+Operations+Plan+2012-2013+v0.1.pdf
http://www.magworld.co.uk/magweb.nsf/alldocs/273A2A576E693D0680257AD3005A696C/$File/Winter+Operations+Plan+2012-2013+v0.1.pdf
Dec 18, 2012, 7:12 am
#1671
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: not far from MUC
Posts: 6,620
Also Appendix G is fairly revealing... if I've understood it right, that means if 100mm - 200mm of snow falls at MAN, the estimated duration of airfield closure is approximately 12 hours!
OT, but for a point of reference, at least 40 cm (i.e. 400mm) of snow fell here in one night last week. Then 20cm the next night. Then 10cm the night after that. Luckily I was away all week
The roads were still open although our Mk I shovel was apparently in regular use.
Dec 18, 2012, 7:23 am
#1672
Join Date: Nov 2012
Programs: BAEC silver
Posts: 788
Love the "snow bank profiles" (Appendix A) at the very end... but it's not clear what the vertical scale on the diagrams is ... metres?
Also Appendix G is fairly revealing... if I've understood it right, that means if 100mm - 200mm of snow falls at MAN, the estimated duration of airfield closure is approximately 12 hours!
OT, but for a point of reference, at least 40 cm (i.e. 400mm) of snow fell here in one night last week. Then 20cm the next night. Then 10cm the night after that. Luckily I was away all week The roads were still open although our Mk I shovel was apparently in regular use.
Also Appendix G is fairly revealing... if I've understood it right, that means if 100mm - 200mm of snow falls at MAN, the estimated duration of airfield closure is approximately 12 hours!
OT, but for a point of reference, at least 40 cm (i.e. 400mm) of snow fell here in one night last week. Then 20cm the next night. Then 10cm the night after that. Luckily I was away all week
The roads were still open although our Mk I shovel was apparently in regular use.The real bugger on the day to day aspect is the following
10. SNOW CLOSURE POLICY (SNOCLO) 10.1. Initiation
The presence of even small accumulations of wet snow can significantly affect the performance of aircraft. A plan to clear runway(s) will be initiated when the depth of accumulation is expected to exceed 3mm of slush or wet snow. The time of any snow closure will be notified to ATC and the airport community as far in advance as possible thus enabling operators to manage pushback, turnaround and de-icing activities in the most efficient manner.
Flight operations may continue until such time the runway is formally closed for snow clearance, however, once snow has started to accumulate continued operations will necessitate frequent inspections of the runway to ensure accurate surface state reports are available to pilots. Surface State reports will include the coverage, type(s) and depth of contaminant present in each third of the runway, as described in Section 2.1. The decision to close a runway will account for the need to remove contaminants from the runway surface in a manner which minimises operational impact, but considers the risk that any accumulations of slush, standing water or wet snow may freeze if left untreated.
10.2. Light Snowfall
During or after a light snowfall, experience has demonstrated that a period of approximately 90 minutes is required to clear and anti-ice each runway. In these circumstances a SNOCLO message will be issued by SNOWTAM & NOTAM with an expected duration of 90 minutes. This will be accompanied by an SMS message to the major disruption and weather groups and displayed on the Chroma Fusion system.
10.3. Prolonged or Heavy Snowfall
During or after heavy snowfall, a longer duration of snow closure may be necessary. In these circumstances, a SNOCLO message will be issued by SNOWTAM & NOTAM promulgating the expected duration of closure. If circumstances dictate, the ADM and Snowman Airfield will consider the need to extend the estimated closure duration. This decision will be agreed between the ADM and Crisis Management Centre (if active). The SNOCLO Matrix in Appendix H details and estimated period of airfield closure dependant on the depth of snow accumulation present on airfield surfaces.
10.4. Runway Possession
Whilst snow clearance is in progress on a Runway, the Runway will be closed by ATC and will remain under the control of Snowman Airfield. The remainder of the Airfield Manoeuvring Area will continue to be under ATC control. The Runway will remain closed until sufficient clearance of the Priority 1 Areas detailed in Section 11.1 and appendix B have been completed to allow safe operations to resume.
The presence of even small accumulations of wet snow can significantly affect the performance of aircraft. A plan to clear runway(s) will be initiated when the depth of accumulation is expected to exceed 3mm of slush or wet snow. The time of any snow closure will be notified to ATC and the airport community as far in advance as possible thus enabling operators to manage pushback, turnaround and de-icing activities in the most efficient manner.
Flight operations may continue until such time the runway is formally closed for snow clearance, however, once snow has started to accumulate continued operations will necessitate frequent inspections of the runway to ensure accurate surface state reports are available to pilots. Surface State reports will include the coverage, type(s) and depth of contaminant present in each third of the runway, as described in Section 2.1. The decision to close a runway will account for the need to remove contaminants from the runway surface in a manner which minimises operational impact, but considers the risk that any accumulations of slush, standing water or wet snow may freeze if left untreated.
10.2. Light Snowfall
During or after a light snowfall, experience has demonstrated that a period of approximately 90 minutes is required to clear and anti-ice each runway. In these circumstances a SNOCLO message will be issued by SNOWTAM & NOTAM with an expected duration of 90 minutes. This will be accompanied by an SMS message to the major disruption and weather groups and displayed on the Chroma Fusion system.
10.3. Prolonged or Heavy Snowfall
During or after heavy snowfall, a longer duration of snow closure may be necessary. In these circumstances, a SNOCLO message will be issued by SNOWTAM & NOTAM promulgating the expected duration of closure. If circumstances dictate, the ADM and Snowman Airfield will consider the need to extend the estimated closure duration. This decision will be agreed between the ADM and Crisis Management Centre (if active). The SNOCLO Matrix in Appendix H details and estimated period of airfield closure dependant on the depth of snow accumulation present on airfield surfaces.
10.4. Runway Possession
Whilst snow clearance is in progress on a Runway, the Runway will be closed by ATC and will remain under the control of Snowman Airfield. The remainder of the Airfield Manoeuvring Area will continue to be under ATC control. The Runway will remain closed until sufficient clearance of the Priority 1 Areas detailed in Section 11.1 and appendix B have been completed to allow safe operations to resume.
Dec 18, 2012, 7:39 am
#1674
Join Date: Nov 2012
Programs: BAEC silver
Posts: 788
He isn't very photogenic.
Dec 18, 2012, 8:22 am
#1675
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 8,487
10. SNOW CLOSURE POLICY (SNOCLO) 10.1. Initiation
The presence of even small accumulations of wet snow can significantly affect the performance of aircraft. A plan to clear runway(s) will be initiated when the depth of accumulation is expected to exceed 3mm of slush or wet snow.
The presence of even small accumulations of wet snow can significantly affect the performance of aircraft. A plan to clear runway(s) will be initiated when the depth of accumulation is expected to exceed 3mm of slush or wet snow.
Can you please explain why a BA A320 is somehow prevented from operating from a runway in the UK with 3mm (that's one-tenth of an inch, by the way), when exactly the same BA A320, operating presumably to the same ops manual, quite straightforwardly arrives and departs on the snow-covered (although well-ploughed) runway, during continuing snowfall, at St Petersburg in northern Russia (with WHBM on board, in case you doubt this). Incidentally, the senior cabin crew member was fascinated with our departure, went onto the flight deck to witness the takeoff, and chatted about it all the sector home !
Just what is the difference ? Just in case the usual "their snow is different" dismissal comes up, it's not always -30 and very dry snow they have there; it snows when the temperature is around zero and the snow is wet, as well. And yes, I am aware of Contaminated Runway procedures.
Dec 18, 2012, 9:50 am
#1676
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: JER
Programs: BA Gold/OWE, several MUCCI, and assorted Pensions!
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"Snowman Airfield"? Sheesh, my R/T call-sign was "Baseball". 
Many happy hours arguing with "Seagull" (OC Ops) and whatever OC Eng Wg was called. "Sir" usually worked.
Many happy hours arguing with "Seagull" (OC Ops) and whatever OC Eng Wg was called. "Sir" usually worked.
Last edited by T8191; Dec 18, 2012 at 10:03 am
Dec 18, 2012, 9:57 am
#1677
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: City of Kingston Upon Hull
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 4,941
Dec 18, 2012, 10:24 am
#1678
Join Date: Nov 2012
Programs: BAEC silver
Posts: 788
So here's one for the BA staff.
Can you please explain why a BA A320 is somehow prevented from operating from a runway in the UK with 3mm (that's one-tenth of an inch, by the way), when exactly the same BA A320, operating presumably to the same ops manual, quite straightforwardly arrives and departs on the snow-covered (although well-ploughed) runway, during continuing snowfall, at St Petersburg in northern Russia (with WHBM on board, in case you doubt this). Incidentally, the senior cabin crew member was fascinated with our departure, went onto the flight deck to witness the takeoff, and chatted about it all the sector home !
Just what is the difference ? Just in case the usual "their snow is different" dismissal comes up, it's not always -30 and very dry snow they have there; it snows when the temperature is around zero and the snow is wet, as well. And yes, I am aware of Contaminated Runway procedures.
Can you please explain why a BA A320 is somehow prevented from operating from a runway in the UK with 3mm (that's one-tenth of an inch, by the way), when exactly the same BA A320, operating presumably to the same ops manual, quite straightforwardly arrives and departs on the snow-covered (although well-ploughed) runway, during continuing snowfall, at St Petersburg in northern Russia (with WHBM on board, in case you doubt this). Incidentally, the senior cabin crew member was fascinated with our departure, went onto the flight deck to witness the takeoff, and chatted about it all the sector home !
Just what is the difference ? Just in case the usual "their snow is different" dismissal comes up, it's not always -30 and very dry snow they have there; it snows when the temperature is around zero and the snow is wet, as well. And yes, I am aware of Contaminated Runway procedures.
Dec 19, 2012, 9:41 am
#1679
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 52
So here's one for the BA staff.
Can you please explain why a BA A320 is somehow prevented from operating from a runway in the UK with 3mm (that's one-tenth of an inch, by the way), when exactly the same BA A320, operating presumably to the same ops manual, quite straightforwardly arrives and departs on the snow-covered (although well-ploughed) runway, during continuing snowfall, at St Petersburg in northern Russia (with WHBM on board, in case you doubt this). Incidentally, the senior cabin crew member was fascinated with our departure, went onto the flight deck to witness the takeoff, and chatted about it all the sector home !
Just what is the difference ? Just in case the usual "their snow is different" dismissal comes up, it's not always -30 and very dry snow they have there; it snows when the temperature is around zero and the snow is wet, as well. And yes, I am aware of Contaminated Runway procedures.
Can you please explain why a BA A320 is somehow prevented from operating from a runway in the UK with 3mm (that's one-tenth of an inch, by the way), when exactly the same BA A320, operating presumably to the same ops manual, quite straightforwardly arrives and departs on the snow-covered (although well-ploughed) runway, during continuing snowfall, at St Petersburg in northern Russia (with WHBM on board, in case you doubt this). Incidentally, the senior cabin crew member was fascinated with our departure, went onto the flight deck to witness the takeoff, and chatted about it all the sector home !
Just what is the difference ? Just in case the usual "their snow is different" dismissal comes up, it's not always -30 and very dry snow they have there; it snows when the temperature is around zero and the snow is wet, as well. And yes, I am aware of Contaminated Runway procedures.
Also, with reference to the MAN and St Pete's, remember the UK will likely have 'wet snow' whereas somewhere like ST P may well have 'dry snow'. I cannot remember any airbus figures but the 777 can operate in 60mm dry snow but only 13mm wet snow. (There are more contaminated figures/depths/conditions but the 13 & 60 shown give an idea of how different types of snow affect aircraft operations)
Dec 19, 2012, 9:48 am
#1680
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 52
I'm flying LHR-GLA on 1492 on Wednesday and noticed that the weather for this day is for 25 kph South South Easterly winds at LHR.
Does this kind of this crosswind create ATC issues with spacing, missed approaches etc. or will it be business as normal. Similarly, the weather in GLA for our scheduled arrival is a 31kph almost perfect crosswind. While that will make it entertaining for non-nervous flyers, I don't see GLA being so busy as to have weather delays, but what are the crosswind limits for BA pilots?
Does this kind of this crosswind create ATC issues with spacing, missed approaches etc. or will it be business as normal. Similarly, the weather in GLA for our scheduled arrival is a 31kph almost perfect crosswind. While that will make it entertaining for non-nervous flyers, I don't see GLA being so busy as to have weather delays, but what are the crosswind limits for BA pilots?
A 777 can land and take off in 40 knots crosswind in the dry, in the wet it's the same 40 across for landing but only 25 across for take off.
Try this video for some 777 crosswind certification trials by Boeing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z2LtHrn9Jw
Comtminated runways, snow/ice/etc will reduce these numbers