kirky

I very much doubt that there are any suitable modern comfy coaches based on Gibraltar anyway, so one with Gibraltar number plates would be unlikely and also politically a bad move.

iirc the Gibraltar bus fleet is (was?) ancient and owned by the Gib goverment.

David-A

GibAir, the ground handling agents, remnants of GB Airways, do have 2 air conditioned long coaches that are often used for this purpose. They normally leave with the GIB departing passengers to AGP, however sometimes they also are used for collections from AGP (especially if flight times coincide, or advance notice etc).

However, they are not always used (might be under maintenance, etc) or even if they are used, extra coaches are hired when required.

The Bland Group of which they are part also have a fleet of smaller midsized air conditioned tour busses (not public busses) kept in very good condition, however these are generally in use during the day, either in Gibraltar or with trips to places in Spain, Morocco or even Portugal. Sometimes they are used, but coaches are normally brought into service more quickly and require fewer drivers.

All Gibraltar based vechiles are Gibraltar plated.

But I'm curious, why would you say using Gib plated vechiles would be politically a bad move?

As for the public busses in Gibraltar, for many years in the past these were privately owned and indeed operated in mix of either poor state of repair or great repair but absolutly ancient (depending on the company operating the route) that is why the Gib Govt nationalised them in 2004 and created a government owned bus company with new vechiles:
http://www.gibnet.com/images/bus.htm

[Route 10 which goes Border/Airport > Market Place > Morrisons (IIRC) and back is still operated privately with an assortment of double deckers of various origins (sadly no Routemasters!)]

NFH

I submitted a complaint to BA, and the response back was mostly standard wording. They said "While I appreciate your reasons for asking, I am afraid I'm unable to consider your claim for the telephone and meal expenses. I am also unable to offer you any compensation."

Judging from the time of day the reply was sent (06:24BST) and the name of the sender, it looks as if it dealt with by a team in India.

Even if the delay was caused by bad weather, by refusing to reimburse telephone and meal expenses, surely BA are in breach of EU Regulation 261/2004?

dj_jay_smith

I would try. A delay is counted by the time when you reach your final destination. So if you had to be bussed from AGP to GIB then the delay is the difference from when you should have landed until you disembarked the bus, I think you said 4h 30m.

I would also point out that you travelled business class and the price of your ticket and that given this 'high' price how disapointed you are with your treatment. Something along the lines of that you accept that problems can occur but you still expect to be treated with respect and as a human being!

And that while you can't directly compare to the other flights which managed to make it to/from GIB I would point this out as this is actually an argument that the conditions were not as bad as they suggested (of course safety always comes first!).

NFH

Yes, I tried this. In fact my exact words were "I accept that things can go wrong even on the best airlines, but one of the reasons I pay more to fly British Airways, particularly in Club, is so that if things do go wrong, BA normally treats people a lot better than budget carriers. I paid for a premium service, but when things went wrong, we were not treated as premium passengers."

David-A

Becarefull that this comes accross the right way!

There is a danger of it sounding like you *expect* a differentiation of service from ET passengers, not the the service wasn't up to the standard you'd expect for BA passengers.

Afterall, we all board thorugh the same airbridge/stairs, breath the same air, etc.

Indeed the only relevance to you being in CE is possibly once there was a problem, and how it is addressed relevant to the paid for a 'BA quality premium' service. I certainly don't think there is any case for a service differentiation in terms of the transport AGP-GIB or during that period, however if a service falls short of expectation price paid has some relevant to this, although it is valid at all price points - as part of why we choose BA.

NFH

BA have replied again saying "Your claim for compensation has been refused because BA0490 was cancelled due to adverse weather conditions which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, British Airways is not liable for a compensation payment in this situation."

I thought they were liable for reimbursing costs of refreshments and phone calls, but not the statutory €200/€400 or whatever. Am I right? I'm only claimer the former, not the latter.

NFH

I eventually phoned BA because of their lack of expertise in handling the matter by e-mail. They finally agreed that they had an obligation to reimburse our meals and phone calls, which they subsequently did. Interestingly, the GBP payment for phone calls to my UK account took 3 days, whereas the EUR payment to my German account for meals took only 1 day.

LTN Phobia

Not necessarily due to anything BA did though. Sometimes UK payments take some time to get through the banking system (up to 3 working days I think) whereas I find that SWIFT payments arrive usually within 1 working day.

NFH

True, but GBP payments are now same day by FPS (Faster Payments Service) instead of BACS. The EUR payment was SEPA (intra-Euroland) rather than SWIFT.

chris18london

This template letter can be very maddening.

Especially after you've send them a Met Office report indicating glorious weather at Heathrow for the entire day of departure. Correspondence to the Spanish and British Air Authorities eventually came up good.. some 2 years later.

NFH

Although this happened 5 years ago, there has since been a lot more publicity about EU 261/2004, which has renewed my willpower to get some redress. 3 x €200 = €600, which is not a trivial sum. I'm still within the 6-year limit imposed by Section 5 of the Limitation Act 1980. I have become a lot more litigious in recent years and am very confident taking court action.

Much of the information in my original post above is superfluous to an EU 261/2004 claim. The basis of my claim is that:

1. BA0490 departed from LHR 45 minutes late because of factors within BA's control.
2. BA0490 was diverted to AGP because of fog at GIB. The fog quickly cleared, following which the U2 and ZB flights to GIB, which had also been diverted to AGP, departed from AGP and landed at GIB with an overall delay of significantly less than 2 hours. BA0490 failed to do the same, which resulted in arrival by coach at GIB with a delay of 4½ hours. This failure was within BA's control.

I'm interested to hear views on the merits of such a claim. When assessing EU 261/2004 claims where there is a purported weather issue, do English courts take into account the success of other airlines' flights in reaching the same destination at the same time?

David-A

Circumstances can change rapidly.

There would be a need to refuel regardless of whether heading back to the UK, or trying GIB again (different quantities, but a need to refuel). Accordingly, given that the aircraft was refueled prior to passengers disembarking, they might well argue this was entirely consistent with them being ready to try again if the situation improved - and be evidence they were not discounting the option.

When did ZB and U2 depart AGP to return to GIB? If they had already landed earlier (before you would have been in a position to re-depart AGP), they may argue the situation had deteriorated again. If it was after passengers had been taken off your flight, then in practical terms it is probably quicker to continue by coach. At some point you need to commit to a plan.

BA may argue they were managing two sets of delays (the return passenger load as well), once passengers were bussed from GIB to AGP, it would not be practical to turn them around.

The weather when you arrived is irrelevant, the moment you are off the aircraft in practical terms, you are reasonably committed to land transfer based upon practicalities of switching.

henkybaby

The long and short of it:

BA can (and will) argue that the weather is beyond their control.

They decided to divert and then provided alternative transport. That is all they have to do legally. That they did not provide alternative transport via the plane available (like the other carriers you mention) is beside the point. If BA chose to terminate the flight at AGP they are within their right to do so.

I think you don't have a chance, I am sorry to say.

simons1

Good luck but I think you will have a hard job getting anywhere.

The fact that all three flights were diverted indicates that bad weather was at least in part responsible for the day's events. BA may also argue that at that point the weather information available to them suggested a longer delay hence the decision to get coaches. The fact that the other flights eventually made it to GIB could be attributed to different opinions. BA might also suggest they had a contingency plan for such circumstances which they implemented as fast as they could.

In respect of your original point about "What as a Silver EC member and CE passenger should I expect from BA in recompense for this bad treatment?" I'm not aware that your status and the class travelled has any bearing on the case.